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Hagen

Do experienced skydivers jump without AAD?

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Looks like you live in the free world and I still in USSR - at our dropzoned AAD, helmets and visual altimeters are OBLIGATORY, and many of them require audible altimeters, too:)...

maybe that is why I cannot accept the idea about AAD as smth optional...

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Looks like you live in the free world and I still in USSR



Not as free as you might think. There are several dz's in the US that require AAD's. The one I recently sold was installed specifically so I could jump at one of those dz's.

Is jumping regulated by the government there? That could be a big part of the difference; in the US skydiving is "self regulated", meaning that the government puts very few rules on our activities (and the rules - called "FAR's" - have more to do with aviation safety in general than jumper safety in particular). Our national parachuting association (USPA) is supposed to "regulate" us, but what they say has no force of law behind it.

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I haven't jumped an aad in nearly 100 jumps simply because i cant afford one. Saying that i am an adult and don't think i should be pressured into doing so. I accept the risks and when im at the dropzone i'd like to leave the silly health and safety guru's at home who try to control our lives. It just means i'm more cautious when choosing my jump and who i jump with.
Saying that i am saving for a new rig that will more than likely have one.
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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I changed the title of the topic 'cause, yes, I ask not about machismo but about 'normality' of jumping without AAD...



I have three skydiving rigs, two AADs, and have kept only one of the AADs in date.

I only do classic accuracy (immediate opening) and wingsuit (low descent rate which won't fire an AAD) jumps with the big rig so I didn't bother to buy an AAD for it.

Since moving to a state which shuts their plane down between loads I haven't jumped my second skydiving rig and bothered to keep that AAD in date.

It's a good idea to have an AAD and not that expensive (about $12/month) so I have one on my main skydiving rig.

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>I just wonder how many men like these exist in the world? Are they all this macho-like type?

I have three rigs. Two have AAD's. When they are out for service, I jump without AAD's. They are good backups but are far from necessary equipment.

>And, if serious, is it common for very experienced skydivers to refuse from
>AADs? And do you think it makes any sense?

Depends on what they're doing! If they are doing low timer bigways it might be a good idea. (Would be an even better idea, of course, to not do such lowtimer bigways.) If they are doing hop and pops for swooping, it won't buy them much, and might actually hurt them. They're not going to forget to pull, and the odds of them getting "knocked out" before they pull are small.

That being said, there are also some people who just don't like them/can't afford them/don't want to spend the money and make up justifications to validate their decision.

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I know 3 people who are still living today because of them. Two of those people had more than 3,000 jumps when they were saved. The other was just off student status.

On the other hand, I no nobody personally who has been injured or killed due to a msifire. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I have just never seen it.

Probably 99 percent of my jumps have been with an AAD. I'm not afraid to jump without one, but I prefer the safety. Money isn't an issue for me, so I have one in both of my rigs, and there will be one in any future rigs I buy.
There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

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There are already many good responses here so I will make mine short. Right now I have 2 rigs: One is my primary rig used mainly for RW and AFF. That rig has a Cypres in it and when I do RW and AFF, I like my Cypres turned ON thank you very much. I have read too many horror stories and have personally known people whose fates where determined by Cypres or other reliable AADs.

My other rig will be used for swooping primarily. Getting out lower (3K to 5K) and generating higher speeds toward the ground, this rig will not have an AAD also due to reading incident reports of them firing low due to high rates of descent (while in a dive). The choice is personal just like that of an RSL. Some people like them some people don't. But the best thing to do is learn the pros and cons of each and adopt whatever fits your comfort level and/or your skydiving discipline.

I never understood the whole I own a Cypres but I don't turn it on thing. Believe it or not, there are people who have died from going in with nothing out, Cypres equipped but not activated. :S

It is something I don't understand but then again I have gotten on the plane accidentally forgetting to turn mine on a time or two and it is possible that it was just that person's unlucky day. [:/]

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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I started skydiving in the era when AADs were still awkward and less reliable, and even after the Cypres became available I made a few thousand jumps without one. A number of those jumps were spent catching spinning AFF students with nothing to protect my cranium except hard-earned skills and a soft leather frap hat. Even without an AAD watching over me, I cheerfully participated in four-ways, eight-ways, and bigger dives that I suspected were going to be complete zoo loads.

On the other hand, I've made a few thousand jumps on rigs that were equipped with modern AADs and don't have any tenacious objections to wearing one.

Like others who have replied here I can think of at least one friend who was saved by an AAD. I also mourned the loss of a good friend who died because an AAD fired when it wasn't expected to.

Making a significant number of jumps without an AAD, particularly when first starting out in the sport, gives someone a different appreciation for the phrase "after you leave the airplane you are dead unless YOU take some positive action." I'm not sure I would have the same appreciation for that concept, or that I would have developed that appreciation as early in my skydiving career, if every one of my jumps had been made with an AAD.

People who always jump with an AAD can make a number of very good arguments to support their decisions, and the decision to jump without an AAD is most certainly a serious choice, but the decision to jump with one should be given equally serious consideration. AADs dramatically reduce some risks but increase others and can introduce new complications. These days when someone chooses to jump without an AAD you might find it perfectly reasonable to question that person's decision and scrutinize their motives. Are you just as willing to thoroghly scrutinize someone's decision to jump with an AAD, or even more importantly, your own?

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I will be jumping without an AAD soon. It's not for lack of wanting to jump with an AAD or realizing that it's smart to do so. It's because I can't afford one right now.

I tried for six months to save up and something always came up. I got close several times. Then I got very very close to having the full amount saved up and I got a spoiled girlfriend who ate up my savings in a matter of weeks (plus I went on a beach trip with my family - and we don't do anything together like that very often).

I have an AAD right now, but the problem is it expiring and a repack coming up soon.

Do I realize the dangers? Yes. Though I am very conservative and don't jump in anything more than a two way. I do more solo jumps than anything. I know problems can still occur, but far less likely than those who are always in a four way.
Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

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Do I realize the dangers? Yes. Though I am very conservative and don't jump in anything more than a two way. I do more solo jumps than anything. I know problems can still occur, but far less likely than those who are always in a four way.



I won't bash your decision... it's your call, and sometimes money is a bigger issue than those who have money think it is.

For the record, 4-way teams are one of the LEAST likley candidates for loss of altitude awareness. I challenge you to cite a single recent example of a team ending up in the basement resulting in multiple AAD fires/bounces.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

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For the record, 4-way teams are one of the LEAST likley candidates for loss of altitude awareness. I challenge you to cite a single recent example of a team ending up in the basement resulting in multiple AAD fires/bounces.



It used to happen more than you might think. But since they did not have cypreses back then they just pulled low or bounced.B|

It still happens but with audibles and AADs it is becoming rare.


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I don't remember the details, but there was a 4 way team that on one jump had everyone but the video fire their AAD's. I am pretty sure it was here in Dallas. I am sure someone on DZ.com will remember the details.



Anyone with info, please chime in... were they truly not altitude aware, or just doing stupid shit? Newbie team or experienced team? Audibles all-around, or not? Approximate date?

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It used to happen more than you might think. But since they did not have cypreses back then they just pulled low or bounced.

It still happens but with audibles and AADs it is becoming rare.



I've been around jumpers my entire life, so I know it happened way too much in the past... the lack of audibles, competitive nature of 4-way, and tendancy to dump low since the canopies of the time allowed it combined to put many a team in the basement. I recall a (south african?) 4-way bounce sometime in the 80's, and many close calls.

That's why I asked for a recent example. As you said, with audibles it's pretty darn rare.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

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I would love to jump an AAD but I cannot afford one. So to make sure I have as much protection as I can without having one I do things like wear a full face helmet religiously, use my rsl and an audible. I know thats no substitution but it lessens the risk. [:/]

Poetry don't work on whores.

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1200 bucks is a lot of money...

there is a lot of different situations where you might just need one, I would like one but see sometimes better places to spend the money

although now that I jump with students I can see more reason for one

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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I saw 3 out of 4 cypres fires 5 years ago at a boogie. The only reason the 4th guys didn't fire is because he didn't have one.[:/]
He still managed to deploy his reserve manually although very low.

But that wasn't a four way, it was a big way and the 4 guys in the base decided to keep on turning points after everyone else left. Fun hogs I tell ya!



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Just my two cents....

My first rig did not have an AAD. College kid, low funds, butt ugly rig (brown Racer with orange dot, ugh), etc.

After a seven year layoff from the sport and a few kids later, my wife was cool with me jumping again (she knew it was part of the package when we got married), but requested conservative choices for canopies and an AAD. $1200 isn't cheap for a piece of equipment, but it is pretty cheap life insurance. I don't ever want to be in a spot where I need it, but if even only for the sake of my wife's peace of mind, it's worth it to me. An AAD isn't the cure all, neither is an audible (mine never leaves my camera helmet and probably never will), as everything in life is subject to failure at some point or another, but they are good tools. It is up to each of us to decide whether or not to use them, and I can respect a decision either way. I will most likely always use them, particularly since I don't ever plan on aggressive swooping and the majority of my jumps are now camera jumps.

Just have respect for what you're doing!

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I recall a (south african?) 4-way bounce sometime in the 80's, and many close calls.
__________________________________________________

What was that we used to say? The difference between a good four-way and a bad one....
?????
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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but there was a 4 way team that on one jump had everyone but the video fire their AAD's. I am pretty sure it was here in Dallas

Dallas Heat had it happen in 1996; there's a long thread about it in rec.skydiving. They'd gotten out at 3500 and tried to maximize the altitude.

In the thread there's a post from Billvon detailing a coule of other instances; one at the Ranch where one person's Cypres fire in the middle of turning points got everyone else to dump and be open by 200(!) feet, and an incident in the 80's that ended up with one dead and one broken.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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and the freefly one 2 years ago where one persons borrowed rig fired and the other person turned away and tracked into ground

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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