Do experienced skydivers jump without AAD?

[Hagen 0]

I know at least two very experienced, cool, respected and so on skydivers who refuse to activate or use their AADs (Cypres). The both seem to be that Macho man kind of guys:). And, yes, they seem to be in perfect fit, they are self-confident - and the both swoop being pretty loaded...

In all these circumstances - even though theu don't really know each other, and they live thousand miles far from each other - they say the same arguments while defending their position as to AAD:

- I trust only myself, not some device; I swoop and the Cypres may fire unintentionally; I control everything, I jump with experienced guys, so something bad hardly can happen to me; if even something happens, my team mates will help me to deploy...

By posting this, I don't want to hear bad opinions about these two men:) . Nope - they are not idiots, and maybe everything that they say is true...

I just wonder how many men like these exist in the world?:) Are they all this macho-like type?:)

And, if serious, is it common for very experienced skydivers to refuse from AADs? And do you think it makes any sense?..

[labrys 0]

IMO, If they swoop heavily loaded canopies regularly they have every right and reason to choose not to turn on their AADs if the AADs are not designed for swooping. Even if they use AADs designed for swooping they get to choose. I don't interpret it as machism. It's a personal choice.

Owned by Remi #?

[skybytch 259]

I'm not very experienced, cool or respected, I jump a lightly loaded canopy that I don't swoop, and I'm not a guy.

Although I have had one in the past, currently I don't have an AAD (automatic activation device) on my rig. Not because I think I'm that good, but because I've accepted the additional risk that not having an AAD entails.

Don't get me wrong. I think AAD's are a good thing. I'll get another one within the next year or so, certainly before I try for an AFF rating or do any more big RW jumps. But for the kind of skydives I do right now, the risk of losing altitude awareness or getting knocked out is slim enough that I'm okay with it.

I think that being okay with the risks is a lot more common with jumpers who've been in the sport awhile, especially those of us who started before the introduction of the Cypres.

[Hagen 0]

Well, it was a bit a surprise for me to find out the truth about the guys:). Here the common opinion says that AAD is a necessary thing (and they are obligatory at all dropzones in my country).

That is why it's so interesting for me to hear other opinions as to necessity of an AAD for experienced jumpers at certain kinds of skydiving activities (maybe I should rename the topic:)...

[diablopilot 2]

I wouldn't call myself "Macho" in any sense of the word, but I too choose not to jump AAD's

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hagen 0]

I changed the title of the topic 'cause, yes, I ask not about machismo but about 'normality' of jumping without AAD...

[faulknerwn 36]

Its not a macho thing for me, but I own 6 rigs and can't afford AADs for them all! I have no AADs at all. I'm not against em, and if anyone wanted to buy me some I'd install them, but I'm ok with the minimal extra risk of jumping without them.

W

[skybeergodd 0]

close to 5000 jumps here, I do alot of 4 way team training and I also do alot of AFF jumps. All 3 of my rigs have AAD's and they are always on for jumping. Now if needed I have no problems jumping a rig without an AAD, if 1 on mine is getting at SSK for maint. or if I borrow a rig that doesn't have one,No big deal. The only idiotic thing is if someone owns one, has it installed and doesn't turn it on for the "cool" factor. Why would you pay that much and in order to keep it in the rig you have to keep it in date. If your not going to turn it on then save yourself the $$ and remove it.

[tbrown 26]

Quote

I wouldn't call myself "Macho" in any sense of the word, but I too choose not to jump AAD's

I wouldn't call JP macho either, it's his choice and I respect it.

There ARE some non-AAD jumpers who are particularly, even loathesomely, obnoxious about it, but they're that way about everything else and everyone knows it.

Thirty years ago, even twenty years ago, nobody off student status used AADs and nobody was particularly concerned about it. Nowadays AADs have come far enough that most people want them and use them, myself included. And some American dropzones require them, which I suppose is the DZO's business.

But Al Kreuger's recent accident also serves to remind us that it doesn't matter how many jumps you have or how good you are - you never know when you'll need oneand the decision to jump without one is a serious choice.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[BIGUN 1,053]

I'd rather have one and not need it; than not have one and need it.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[councilman24 36]

Lena,

You may or may not realize that until about 1991 almost NO experienced jumpers, at least in the U.S., used ADD's (called that then for automatic deployment device, changed to AAD 'activation' to more closely reflect what it does). That's because the only ones available were heavy and unreliable as to firing when they shouldn't. They were widely used on students. The introduction of the cypres changed that. Now, as I'm sure you've found out, there are many younger jumpers (younger than me anyway) that wouldn't ever think of jumping without one.

I have about 1600 jumps without one and during that time had a good friend die when she was knocked out hitting the door on exit. Most of the experienced jumpers at the small home dropzone were on the load with her at a boogie. She was wearing a leather "frap" hat. After the death many of the jumpers on the load said they were going to get a 'hard' helmet, usually a hockey helmet or a protec in those days. AAD's weren't even an option. But NOBODY followed through and changed the helmet or other equipment they were jumping. Then it was a given that after you left the airplane you were dead unless YOU took some positive action. To me that was some of the mystery, attraction, and thrill of the sport. There are very few situations in life where if you stop doing everything your sure to die. There are many where you might die or get badly hurt, but not sure to die.

In those days most jumpers were killed hitting the ground without an open parachute. Loss of altitude awareness (there weren't many audible altimeters around then either) was the issue we talked about. I explained such fatalities to non-jumpers as they were having too much fun to remember to open. NOW, we have very few such fatalities. More are from hitting the groung with an OPEN parachute, and we have a different kind of altitude awareness (under canopy) to worry about.

Since 1995 I've had AAD's on the two rigs I jumped the most. I haven't had it on specialty rigs;l water jump or CRW rigs for instance. I've always had at least three rigs at any one time. I've made a few jumps without an AAD and chosen not to make a few where I thought the risks were too great and didn't have one available.

I've also seen several friends saved by AAD fires that would not have survived otherwise. I'm glad I haven't lost those friends.

But, IMHO, using an AAD is a choice. Some choose not to for good reasons. Swooping may be one of them. Doing mainly CRW may be another. Financial reasons might be another but I don't accept that one so much. (Okay, Wendy's six rigs might me a little much) Recently I was trading messages with a new jumper who was going to put the money he would have spent on an AAD for his first rig into the "best" reserve. I tried to point out that the $400 a used AAD might cost wasn't going to make much difference in the 'quality' of reserve he could get. I'm not sure I ever convinced him.

There are some jumers who give reasons much like those you listed. All of them except swooping are not particularly impressive to me. I don't much mind if older jumpers who lived through the times when people bounced choose not to have an AAD. They know what the deal is. But newer jumpers who won't jump with one, as well as those who won't ever jump without one, are taking things to extremes that are not justified.

IMHO

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[D22369 0]

its a personal choice. I accept the risk of not having one, I have nothing against them and recommend them to students when the question of gear choices come up, but prefer to rely on myself.

I dont think not using one is macho in any way.


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[bodypilot1 0]

I have 3 rigs. All of them have an AAD in them and are turned on when I jump with them.

Thats just my choice.


Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[DSE 3]

I'm the low number guy.
Two rigs have em'.
Used to jump one rig with a Cypres, one without.
Found I was constantly confused about whether the one was turned on or not. Found a great deal on an older Cypres, installed it for the next 3 years.
I've got many jumps without them, but like to have the added safety. It's personal preference and being self-responsible to make a decision one way or another. Your ego and wallet should be small components of your preference, IMO.

[2shay 0]

I know two people who were knocked out in ff and the cypress saved them. I think that your friends do not jump aad's becasue of swooping at a high wing loading, but I don't know how high, but a few of my friends are around 2.2 or maybe higher and they do swoop and they do wear aad's. Personal preference of course, but for someone like yourself, I do not see what your argument would be for not jumping one?

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

There have been a few posters here with a lot of experience saying they chose not to have one. There has not been one I have seen so far that said they have one that they refuse to turn on. In the US it is your choice to own one or not. That is a very different decision from owning one and not turning it on.
I do a 270 turn for landing under my Stiletto whenever possible; I never worry about my opener; I am simply not going fast enough. If these guys are swooping cross-braced canopies doing more than 360 degree moves for landing they may not want to turn on an older AAD. However since they are required to spend the money on an AAD you would think they would spend the small amount it costs to upgrade to a Cypres2 or Argus. If they really are refusing to turn it on just to be macho, well yes, they are idiots.

[Peej 0]

I used to have a Cypres 1 in my main rig and then i started to get involved in canopy flight and pond swooping. The Cypres 1 is not water proof so i took it out and sold it and put the money towards more and better canopies.

I haven't bothered to buy a Cypres 2, mainly because of a lack of funds. I have accepted the added risks of not using one for now and as soon as i have some money will be investing in one, or better yet a speed Cypres.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[phoenixlpr 0]

This is not a macho thing. There are jump where an AAD can cause more trouble than safety brings.

E.g: hop and pop swoop or pond swoop

[Hagen 0]

these two usually jump RW/FF and swoop is only a part of their jumps. so I hardly can understand why they don't use Cypres Speed - it's not because of money for sure.

that is why I have no other explanation except of their desire to look cool guys with steel... you know:)...

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

these two usually jump RW/FF and swoop is only a part of their jumps. so I hardly can understand why they don't use Cypres Speed - it's not because of money for sure.

Risk management....

Why do you assume the every decisions of everyone is wise and logical?

[Hagen 0]

I'd like it to be so... but yes, I'm a dreamer:)

[dragon2 0]

My own rig has an AAD. I do occasional jumps without AAD, when I borrow a rig that hasn't got one. Mostly those are CRW jumps but did some FS4 video jumps without AAD too, not my first choice but if it's a choice of not jumping otherwise, sometimes I do.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

By posting this, I don't want to hear bad opinions about these two men:) . Nope - they are not idiots, and maybe everything that they say is true...

No, they are not idiots. I made my first 500 jumps (aside from when I was a student) without any aad.

Whether to jump with an AAD is your choice once you get off student status. Some dz's may require them. Again, their business, their choice.

Nothing wrong with these guys jumping without AAD's.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[DougH 270]

I jump with and without one.

If I am using my primary rig it is turned on, and I recognize any limitations that it might add during a jump.

Nothing changes for me if I am jumping a rig without one, I just have one less step before I gear up, I don't have to turn it on.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

I just wonder how many men like these exist in the world?:) Are they all this macho-like type?:)

And, if serious, is it common for very experienced skydivers to refuse from AADs? And do you think it makes any sense?..

I've seen people who are "macho" about it and otherwise...

I have a former team member who went without for his first several years. His statement was that he would like to have one but it was a lot of money that he would rather spend on jumps, and that he accepted the risks. This is usually just an excuse, but I know it to be true because: 1) when he started making a little more money he bought one, and 2) to this day he jumps his first rig, a Vector II with a Sabre1 190 @ 1:1, even though he'd really like new gear... why? because he's kept it in great shape, and would rather spend his money jumping than buy new gear.

On the other hand, I had another former teammate who was the definition of "macho"... for many, many years, he refused to use an AAD, an audible altimeter, a visual altimeter, or a helmet. By the time I joined the team he had been kicked in the head hard enough enough times that he finally broke down and bought a helmet, but refuses to this day to wear any kind of altimeter or AAD. Stupid? in my opinion yes, but then again he's been actively jumping for 30+ years and has 7000+ skydives, so there's not much I can say.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."