No skyhook option

[Skydivesg 6]

I know of several people who would likely be alive had they had some sort of RSL when dealing with their final malfunction.

I actually had the RSL/Skyhook debate with one of them 10 days before he cutaway and then did not pull his reserve high enough to save his life.

I believe in RSLs and I believe in the Skyhook.

I also personally believe that the Skyhook (or other MARD if available) will improve the resale value of a rig in the future. In and of itself, not a reason to buy one.

As the older non-believers age out of the sport more and more people will want a MARD /Skyhook just as there are more and more people who won't jump without an AAD.

Just my humble opinion.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi champ,

I have a bias as I work with fabrics.

I did some inquiring recently on what some jumpers prefer and did find that a fair amount of them simply did not know what their rig was made of.

From a mfg point of view, IMO there is a fair amount of difference. Primarily in the hot-knife cutting of the fabric; the 1000d is heavier and takes more time to actually cut. Also, due to its being heavier it goes through the binding process slightly different; makes it a little more difficult to bind.

But IMO these observations mean nothing to the user.

The 1000d will defintely take the abuse better; and there are more colors available in 1000d.

Some companies that normally build their rigs from 500d will build you their rig in 1000d if you ask. Some companies that normally build their rigs from 500d will use 1000d if a color is not available in 500d, a mix-to-match.

And I once came across a rig that used cotton for the colored fan on the rig.

JerryBaumchen

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I wouldn't get the skyhook even if it was free. I realize I'm not like most, as I also don't use my RSL. Perhaps my attitude is indicative of my years.

I think as expert jumpers, we owe it to everyone to consider the person asking for the advice. In this case, the jumper has 75 jumps.

I have to say that I'm not sure I understand the relevance of your personal history, as I can guess you were at this same stage of jumping in 1980. Attitudes have changed since then, but more importantly the gear has too. A Skyhook is not a normal RSL.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Wing’s has some great specials!! Check their website. I bought my wings for half of what any other rig would have cost. I didn’t need all the extras. I ordered just a good, reliable, comfortable rig. They were great to work with. And, they really made me feel like they valued my business. The bottom line is that I absolutely love my new container.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Cambalectri 0]

Quote

Quote

The Vector is the most well R&D'd rig on the market. It will save your ass if you do everything wrong and need to cutaway low (like 200-300 ft or below where a reserve can get out on its own). However, the situations where you may need a skyhook, canopy collision or low cutaway are avoidable by good judgement when you skydive.

Isn't will a bit of a strong word? As others have said the skyhook doesn't always work and a standard RSL is pretty quick to get a reserve out too. During my second reserve ride the reserve's slider was coming down as I pulled the reserve handle and that was with a normal RSL.

There are pros and cons to every system. If you can't pull your reserve and the AAD fires, the pilot chute has a whole lot more fabric to move out of the way on a Vector compared to a Wings which eats time and altitude. I think more people have hit the ground after an AAD fire than have been saved by a skyhook. Correct reserve sizes helps a lot for that though.

To the original poster. If you have not had a malfunction yet, buy an RSL system of some kind. Way too many people have bounced after pulling the cut away and not finding or pulling the reserve handle.

I would not compare a standard RSL with the Skyhook, to me, these are two different animals...
even though, the goal is similar, to put a canopy above our head, asap !
As for your statement, that the Vector has to move out a lot more fabric compared to a Wings, hence eating time & altitude... I believe it's true, there are more flaps, however,
do this test... put on the floor, a similar sized Wing and Vector3, side by side, and pull both the reserve handles, at the same time... and, tell me, what you see !

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

..if you do everything wrong and need to cutaway low (like 200-300 ft or below where a reserve can get out on its own). However, the situations where you may need a skyhook, canopy collision or low cutaway are avoidable by good judgement when you skydive...

uhm.. seriously!? you would trust your skyhook that much!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mchamp 1]

I love learning about new things expecially when it pertains to the skydiving gear world. Once again thank you Jerry for your insight and sharing your abundant wealth of knowledge!

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[mchamp 1]

A couple of BASE jumpers took Bill Booth up on his offer to demo the skyhook cutaway at a low altitude for spectators to watch. Both cutaway from approximately 300-350 feet and still hand enough time to flare(reserve packed slider down mind you)!

Now that's trusting! Check it out on YouTube somewhere....I think I remember Bill Booth talking about it at PIA 2007

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[virgin-burner 1]

i dont think joe average skydiver gets his reserve packed SD. and your example is still 150ft higher than what the guy suggested to which i responded..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jjudd 0]

Quote

my bridle wrapped around my ankle. As a very inexperienced student spinning on my back, I was screaming my eps in my head.. As I was clearing my cutaway handle and preparing to pull silver ( I was taught locate red and silver, grab red and silver, pull right, arch, clear, pull silver, prey)I looked up and saw my reserve inflating over my head. (skyhook equipped rig). This really gave me confidence in the skyhook

Lets clarify between the skyhook and rsl here as there seems to be some confusion in this thread. In the case above the skyhook would not have been used. It isimpossible unless he cleared the bridle from his ankle and the main deployed or the main had fully deployed with the bridle freeing after opening

Both the skyhook and rsl activate the reserve using the cutaway main. The RSL simply release the reserve pin as it is attached to the main riser. It could have activated the reserve pin pull with the cutaway if enough forcewas created from the trailing d bag or it cleared and started to deploy.

The skyhook would not have beat the reserve pilot chute unless the main d bag or main became untangled and resulted in more drag than the reserve pilot chute. This is because the skyhook is attached from the main line of rsl(which connects to the main riser and reserve pin)to the skyhook connection on the reserve bridle and it is using the cut away main to deploy and result in near immediate line stretch of the reserve. see the below photo

[/url]http://www.para-service.com/skyhook2.htm[url]

I personally would never jump without a skyhook as in most situations it could make the difference. And if you plan on playing around under canopy you simply detach your rsl as you would normally and skyhook is deactivated.

The controversy comes from cuting away on a high performance mal and canopy collisons. The theroy is line stretch is so fast you cant get line twist, which is true, but the linetwists develop after linestretch where body position is poor after a spinning cutaway. it all depends on so many factors but if you want something out fast have skyhook, definetly rsl IMO others feel differently, look at the pros and cons and base it on what you want, I have a family to take care and i feel the pros out weigh the cons god forbid i have that come bite me in the ass. Good luck and PM anytime.

Justin

[jrjny 0]

My next rig will have a skyhook.

[crotalus01 0]

With Halloween coming up and most dropzones having boogies, maybe you will get lucky and win a raffle -I know we usually have a 50% off a Wings container as one of the prizes for our raffle, as well as other container discounts.
As for the Skyhook, I wouldn't mind having one myself (more for the Collin's Lanyard than the MARD itself), but I certainly wouldn't base my container decision solely on whether it was Skyhook compatible. Just my 2 cents.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[hookitt 0]

I will suggest the infinity over the wings every day of the year. If you must choose wings, do yourself one big favor and don't every get the cut in laterals. If you sit fly, I can pretty much guarantee the rig will sit off your back several inches. It's especially a problem if you have a small frame.

Dealers... Stop selling smaller girls the Cut in Laterals option. It's f***ing annoying
Regular cut in laterals cause more fit problems than any other option on any rig. If you want cut ins, infinity makes the floating option which is far superior.

I have no vested interest in any rig. I'm just growing weary of watching Wings with cut in laterals sit several inches away from a sit fliers back. We have lots of them at the dropzone I jump at so I see it regularly.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hackish 8]

I have a Vector 3 and a Javelin. I've had a lot of cutaways on the Jav. If it was available I would pay to have a skyhook installed in the Javelin too. I also find that a significant proportion of riggers also prefer the skyhook.

Frequently you hear the canopy collision argument as fodder against the skyhook but understand the skyhook RSL can be disconnected as easily as any other RSL. Despite the arguments against, more lives have probably been saved with skyhooks than lost because of them. Some people will still argue against using an AAD too despite the lives saved because of them.

Finally, the skyhook brings in another safety innovation with the colins lanyard that is also worth considering.

Maybe give UPT and Sunrise Rigging a call and listen to what each has to say about your concerns and questions.

-Michael

[r.panfil 0]

This is the first time I have heard of this problem with the cut in laterals. I appreciate the insight, but I am not really too interested in many of the "comfort" options. I am going to keep my first rig very basic, keeping options (other than safety) to a minimum until I have enough experience to really know what I want.

If its called free fall then why the hell is it so expensive?

[jjudd 0]

vectors base price also includes all the stainless steel unless that has changed. you may have to pay for the supreme backpading

[r.panfil 0]

I know its all about personal preference, but do you think that I will regret buying a basic rig (no articulation, basic back pad, etc...)? I have mostly been jumping basic student gear, and I don't know any better. I figure it would be a better idea to spend that money in other places... Like on a sky hook, or jump tickets? At this point, I would rather get experience, and become a safer skydiver than have a flashy rig. Does this make sense, or am I just being cheap?

If its called free fall then why the hell is it so expensive?

[SethInMI 145]

Another option is to buy used. Saves money, but takes time to find the right rig, esp if you want a skyhook. The season in the north is winding down, so you have some time to find a rig that fits you and your canopies and has the features you want.

Resale will be much better, as you will likely take a small or no loss on the rig price when you sell (depending on how good a deal you get on the buy).

A big benefit to personal gear vs jumping student gear (IMHO) is fit. Any modern rig that is correctly sized to your body will feel a lot better than a student rig, unless you are the lucky body size that the rig was made for. I know some/most student gear has adjustable lats and mlw, but still...

Seth

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Michael,

Quote

If it was available I would pay to have a skyhook installed in the Javelin too.

This question came up during the Javelin/SkyHook packing demo at the PIA in Reno 2009.

Derek Thomas responded that to get a SkyHook fitted to a Javelin to send in the rig & a check for $267 and they would send you back a SkyHook equipped Jav.

Edit here: OK, my screw-up: It should say ' . . . a check for $2467 and . . . '

Sorry, koppel; Derek was being facetious.

Easy - peasy.



JerryBaumchen

[koppel 3]

from what build year is that for the Jav to be retro fitted?





and to the poster up thread about Cut-in's floating. Having sold Wings for nearly 7 years now I cannot say that I have found this to be a problem so perhaps it is the way they are being measured by the dealer in your area?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

I know its all about personal preference, but do you think that I will regret buying a basic rig (no articulation, basic back pad, etc...)? I have mostly been jumping basic student gear, and I don't know any better. I figure it would be a better idea to spend that money in other places... Like on a sky hook, or jump tickets? At this point, I would rather get experience, and become a safer skydiver than have a flashy rig. Does this make sense, or am I just being cheap?

It's been said a gazillion times, used makes more sense for your first rig unless you have a body size that's impossible to fit.
You will beat it up, you will most likely downsize sooner or later and if you change rigs, new will take a big depreciation hit.

However, nothing beats the fit of a new, custom fit harness (although it isn't too hard to resize a used harness).

If you are planning on keeping it for a while (and I have to admit, I kept my first rig for 7 years) then I'd put the money into the nice things. Kinda like a car, spending a little money into making it nicer pays off in the long run.
You won't have a "plain Jane" rig that makes you envious of all the nicer ones out there.

But that's up to you.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[hackish 8]

Quote

Hi Michael,

Quote

If it was available I would pay to have a skyhook installed in the Javelin too.

This question came up during the Javelin/SkyHook packing demo at the PIA in Reno 2009.

Derek Thomas responded that to get a SkyHook fitted to a Javelin to send in the rig & a check for $267 and they would send you back a SkyHook equipped Jav.

Hi Jerry,

I think mine is too old - I asked once. This does bring up a valid point for the OP. Are there any other MARD systems that were finally offered? Althought the skyhook is the best researched out there maybe there are other options.

-Michael

[champu 1]

Quote

I personally would never jump without a skyhook as in most [emphasis champu] situations it could make the difference. And if you plan on playing around under canopy you simply detach your rsl as you would normally and skyhook is deactivated.

The controversy comes from cuting away on a high performance mal and canopy collisons. The theroy is line stretch is so fast you cant get line twist, which is true, but the linetwists develop after linestretch where body position is poor after a spinning cutaway. it all depends on so many factors but if you want something out fast have skyhook, definetly rsl IMO others feel differently, look at the pros and cons and base it on what you want, I have a family to take care and i feel the pros out weigh the cons god forbid i have that come bite me in the ass. Good luck and PM anytime.

Justin

Quote

Frequently you hear the canopy collision argument as fodder against the skyhook but understand the skyhook RSL can be disconnected as easily as any other RSL. Despite the arguments against, more lives have probably been saved with skyhooks than lost because of them. Some people will still argue against using an AAD too despite the lives saved because of them.

Finally, the skyhook brings in another safety innovation with the colins lanyard that is also worth considering.

First off, I think people are arguing for the skyhook using the merits of RSLs. My general observation is that the number of situations where a skyhook actually made the difference over an RSL is very small (slider down demo cutaways notwithstanding) so I think your use of the term "most" above is grossly inaccurate. And of those situations I haven't heard of any where the person didn't do something demonstrably stupid to induce a cutaway of a canopy that was otherwise flying just fine.

Also, and this is an honest question as accusatory as it sounds, has the collins lanyard ever helped anyone? And if it has, was it an actual riser break and not a person using cutaway cables with the incorrect lengths? Did the riser break happen on opening at an altitude where an RSL/skyhook was even "necessary" to begin with?

Meanwhile, there have been at least two incidents where something went wrong and the added complexity of the skyhook/collins lanyard system made the situation much worse. One was a tandem double fatality and in the other the guy acted extremely quickly and with a lot of luck saved his ass (I'm speaking of the low-timer with the container failure at Skydive Chicago.)

Note that I am not arguing one way or another regarding RSLs, and I think Bill Booth is a great designer, but I think the skyhook system complicates the failure modes on a rig too much, and when you do that you're bound to see bizarre problems as we have.

[virgin-burner 1]

+1

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I am going to keep my first rig very basic, keeping options (other than safety) to a minimum until I have enough experience to really know what I want.

...and that's why you don't buy a new rig for your first rig. You can buy a used rig for less than half the price of a new rig, and then sell it for most of what you bought it for a year or two later. A new rig is going to lose half of it's value over that time period, and even then you're going to be selling a beginner type rig for more than most other beginner type rigs.

When you're new, your harness to canopy size ratio is going to be such that the continer will hold canopies on the larger size compared to the size jumper the harness will fit. What that means is that the only people looking to buy that rig will be newbies or old people, who both are looking for fairly low WL.

Find a nice used rig, save yourself $1000s of dollars, and learn everything you need that way. Spend the extra dough on jumps, where you really learn stuff.

About the Skyhook, just get an RSL, and pay attention to what you're doing. There's a very small slice of sky where the Shkyhook will make the difference over an RSL. If a Skyhook can get a canopy out in 300 ft, and an RSL can get one out in 400ft, you only 'need' the skyhook if you cutaway between 300 and 400ft. If you cutaway higher than that, the RSL works fine. If you cutaway lower than that, you just go in, and it doesn't matter what sort of rig you had.

Also, the Skyhook can disconnect itself during a deployment, and it becomes a standard RSL. In that case, cutting away below 400ft will still kill you.

It's a neat gimmick (sort of) but not a reason to guide your gear buying decisions.