grimmie 173 #1 November 9, 2007 I have been following the saga of Chris-Ottawa downsizing in the other threads. All of the banter had me thinking about all of the places I have had to land off field over the years. I'm not to sure at low jump numbers and a smaller canopy I would have walked away from a few forced landings into tight areas. Even at wide open areas like Skydive AZ or Perris you can get a bad spot and be forced into making critical, quick, lifesaving decisions on bad spots. We also have to take into consideration the rest of the load that is trying to land where you want to go also. I have witnessed jumpers hit power lines, cement barriers, buildings, trees etc. after bad spots. So here are a few things to ponder during your everyday jumping and deciding on new canopies. 1. Do I know the area. If it's a new DZ you are jumping check out the surroundings and landmarks. 2. Can I land my main OR reserve in a tight spot. 3. Can I make good, rapid decisions at deployment altitudes, recognizing the need for a plan B landing. Pick the landing spot up high. 4. Can I land my canopy straight in with minimal ground swoop and shut it down quickly. 5. If I'm open over lots of stuff, like a town, can I recognize and take the path of least resistance that will hurt the least. 6. Where are the bad obstacles, power lines, etc. 7. Look DOWN in freefall, and break off early if it's looking bad. Beware the line of flight and any groups exiting after, however if it's that bad you are probably last out. 8. What are the winds doing, uppers and ground? There are many pointers that others can feel free to add about off DZ landings. Be safe you guys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #2 November 9, 2007 QuoteDo I know the area. If it's a new DZ you are jumping check out the surroundings and landmarks. This one is one I need to remind myself of - not so much when it's a brand-new DZ, but when it's a DZ I don't jump at more than once or twice a year. I'm good at asking for briefings on my first visit to a DZ, but it's not easy to remember it all a year or two later. I was at the Byron Boogie this year, hanging in brakes hoping to get back from a long spot and as I was going over the area on the way back to the DZ, I'm looking down thinking "Shit, I can't remember whether this side is good or bad to land on." Ended up making it back onto the DZ, but if I'd had a more recent briefing, I would have known more about where to go. It was a nice reminder to get a refresher briefing if I'm not a regular at a DZ."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #3 November 9, 2007 >Where are the bad obstacles, power lines, etc. This is an important one. I recently did a demo without checking out the landing area because everyone was telling me what a piece of cake it was. (Mistake.) At least we got a very good briefing of what was nearby, where the hazards were etc etc. On the jump, sure enough, I had to land out. No wind with a Nitro 108. I put it down on a road without much trouble, and I had been told that this road had no powerlines or hazards near it, but remembering a description of a road and seeing it in person are two different things. I was pretty nervous until I got to 500 feet and could see the area was clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #4 November 9, 2007 Great topic and list. I've had more than my share of out landings (ie. landing anywhere unplanned for) and can definitely relate. You mentioned looking down now and again. I remember one jump in particular where the proverbial bad spot dropped the whole load a mile off course. I recognized it in freefall around 6000' feet, turned, track, and dumped. Of 23 on the load, I was the only one to make it back. Here's a few more things that come to mind: Be aware that landing out is more likely to happen on certain kinds jumps, notably when exiting far from the DZ (CRW, high altitude H&Ps, demos, etc). Be more concerned about getting to the ground safely than landing back to the dropzone. Choose a good landing site early rather than being forced to choose a poor one when there's no altitude or options left. Not all surfaces are as smooth or hard as they may appear (particularly tall grass). Assume linear features are man made and are usually surrounded by fences and/or wires. Avoid these. Don't make radical low turns. These apply to any jumper, any canopy, and any wingloading. Many people are either not used to out landings or think it won't happen to them. I'm not talking about landing a hundred yards away in the desert at some place like Perris. I'm referring to everything from city streets, baseball fields, backyards, parking lots, and forests. At some locations, if you don't land on the DZ or pretty close to it, chances are you'll be coming down in trees, clearcuts, or a rushing river bed (see here). Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #5 November 9, 2007 To the beginners -- You will land out if you keep jumping. It will probably sneak up on you, but it will happen. Be prepared mentally for it. Don't panic. Run down the list of stupid stuff to do, and don't do it. I've landed in downtown Kalispell, Montana, in the back yard of a trailer in the woods of North Carolina, on dirt roads in the middle of a forrest, on train tracks in the woods, and lots of other places. It absolutely, positively will happen to you. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #6 November 9, 2007 Quote3. Can I make good, rapid decisions at deployment altitudes, recognizing the need for a plan B landing. Pick the landing spot up high. Just want to add that sometimes a plan B landing spot is behind you! You don't always need to keep flying toward the planned landing area. If you aren't going to make it take a look at what is behind you.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #7 November 9, 2007 If im in a dodgy spot i tend to point towards the PLA for literally a couple of seconds, if i "think" i can make it back then there is doubt and i change to a place i "know" i can make. I like to make my decisions up high. Even if it does mean riding in a trailor full of redneck trash and hearing everyone complain about the smell. 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frazeebd 0 #8 November 9, 2007 Quote2. Can I land my main OR reserve in a tight spot. This is an interesting one... I have not yet had a reserve ride so I really have no idea about landing my reserve in a tight spot... is there sufficient reason to assume its radically different than the main? I'm on a Spectre 210 with a Tempo 210 reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #9 November 9, 2007 >I've landed in downtown Kalispell, Montana, in the back yard of a trailer > in the woods of North Carolina, on dirt roads in the middle of a forrest, on >train tracks in the woods, and lots of other places. Yep. I've landed in canyons, back yards, farms, dirt roads with trees on both sides, farm equipment supplier storage yards, campsites, and McDonald's parking lots. It happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #10 November 9, 2007 > is there sufficient reason to assume its radically different than the main? It will be fairly different. In general, steeper glide, less powerful flare, slower turns. The Tempo, like the PD line of reserves, tend to fly like Triathalons if you've ever jumped one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #11 November 9, 2007 QuoteQuote3. Can I make good, rapid decisions at deployment altitudes, recognizing the need for a plan B landing. Pick the landing spot up high. Just want to add that sometimes a plan B landing spot is behind you! You don't always need to keep flying toward the planned landing area. If you aren't going to make it take a look at what is behind you. My general motto is that so long as I have a place that I know I can land and would want to land, I keep flying for the main landing area. As soon as I no longer have a place between me and the landing area that I can for sure land in, I take my out.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #12 November 9, 2007 The point is well taken and works most of the time. However, doing that and determining where and when to do that are two different things. I've screwed myself more than once because I waited too long. Again, it's better to decide to land out safely and have to walk than it is to be forced into it when there's no other options because of waiting too long. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #13 November 9, 2007 A few years ago when I was the S&TA at The Ranch we compiled some statistics that showed off field landings were associated with a disproportionate number of injuries. For most of us, an off field landing isn't a big deal, but it can become a problem in half-a-heartbeat. There are lots of reasons, and a few things we can do to minimize the risk of injury. I wrote a feature for the S&TA page of The Ranch web site that explored causes and strategies to minimize injuries. If you haven't already checked it out, see Article 16 "Survival Strategies, Off Airport Landings" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.phpTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #14 November 9, 2007 It is something that too many don't think about, or take lightly. GPS works great, most of the time. And if you are used to jumping at a big airport, it seems impossible to really land in the rough. But it can be the deadliest of situations. Things begin to move very fast, even if you're on a big, slow canopy. You have to consider an off landing as being in "enemy territory". There are any number of things there that can hurt or kill you, and you have to find them all, plan your approach figure out the winds, and make the landing, all in pretty quick succession. When you are used to familiar landmarks for setting up your pattern, it is much different when they aren't there. You have to watch your altitude, visualize where you will make your turns and end up with a safe landing. You may have to figure out, from 500 ft., which yard has the pit bull and which has the poodle. I've had a lot of off landings. They can be very exciting and fun because of the improvising required. But they're never routine. Your senses should go to "full alert", and you should be seeing things at a higher rate and in more detail than normal. This is definitely a time when complacency can kill you. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rygon 0 #15 November 9, 2007 just having a guess here but im sure google maps/ live maps can help a lot if you are jumping at a new place. with me just starting ive used the maps to see the biggest closeup i could get ..just to see how it looks...then go out a bit to see the surrounding area then a bit more off..with the motorway being approx >4miles away from the dz i can locate it within 10-20 secs at my pull time (5000k) helped once when i didnt know which way i was facing and became disorientated until i saw the motorway Also another question..im guessing normally ppl like to turn one way or another when landing (either right or left of the spot)...does this make much difference to your attitude towards landings if you are forced (by dz fules or by obsticles) to land the weaker way Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #16 November 10, 2007 The recent Spaceland fatality is a good reminder that everyone at the DZ should also be hyper-aware of off-DZ landings as well. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #17 November 10, 2007 Quote just having a guess here but im sure google maps/ live maps can help a lot if you are jumping at a new place. They can be great for getting the big picture for sure, but they are no substitute for a good briefing. Most DZs have a high-quality aerial photo at the DZ that can be used for briefings, and what doesn't show on the photo are things like "this looks clear but there's tons of stumps" and "that field looks like grass but it's actually riddled with planting spikes" and "this is a vineyard - avoid it at all costs" and "that area that looks nice and flat is actually a steady hill." QuoteAlso another question..im guessing normally ppl like to turn one way or another when landing (either right or left of the spot)...does this make much difference to your attitude towards landings if you are forced (by dz fules or by obsticles) to land the weaker way Landing directions are determined by factors that aren't related to the spot... landing direction is determined by 1) what the winds are doing on the ground 2) what the DZ's rules are for setting the landing pattern. If I'm landing out, I hope that I will be able to determine the best way for me to land; at that point, what the "rules" are back at the DZ is irrelevant, though I'll still make my best attempt to land as safely as possible for myself and for others who may be landing out with me. If I'm landing out and I know which way the wind is blowing and it's safe for me to land into the wind ... I'm of course going to try to do that. If others are landing out at the same place as me, I'm going to try my best to follow a pattern and manage myself in traffic same as if we were back at the DZ."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 173 #18 November 10, 2007 Good info everyone. About plan B being behind you or downwind... Lost Prairie, about 10 years or so ago. A naked 4 way got out on a REALLY horrendous spot. The spot was over the big hill to the East of the DZ. There were fire roads to go to or openings on the mountain with rocks and downed trees on them. The entire load except for one tandem last out landed on the hill. Everyone was safe except for one of the naked 4 way guys. Luckily a local from Montana found him (Lanny). 8 of us hiked up to retrieve him with a backboard and medical gear. The "Crack's" got cancelled and the Flathead Valley Search and Rescue was called out. He was put on the ALERT helicopter at 3:00AM. The injured jumper made a full recovery, my knees hurt for months from the hike up and back and a great Saturday night was wrecked. Three simple things would have prevented it all. 1. Better canopy skills 2. A downwind run to the valley right next to him 3. Looking down during freefall..and out the door before jumping! He focused on making it to the DZ and it was his first time jumping there. About open places like Skydive AZ. I have had to pick many roads and fence lines to land by, and once had to set down in a backyard in Toltec. I landed in a ball field in downtown Perris once also. And my favorite was an apple orchard a mile past Benson's at the Ranch. Things on the ground ARE larger than they appear! The whole earth is a DZ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #19 November 10, 2007 Quotejust having a guess here but im sure google maps/ live maps can help a lot if you are jumping at a new place. I think NWFlyer has the best answer, a good briefing. But, I did have one off landing and my time with GoogleMaps paid off. It helped as soon as I used the accuracy trick and saw that I wasn't going to make the dz, I turned to set up for my first choice off-field site. Just remember that GoogleMaps wont give you power-line placement or terrain information (apart from shadows). I had to use my memory at that time to remember that there was an incline in part of the area, so that I could avoid it and land in the flats.SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
