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jclalor

PAC barrel rolls

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The question is not "can it be done", but rather "is it legal and should it be done?". The obvious answer is no and I would not get on board with a pilot that demonstrated such disregard for established flight procedures. I pay $25 for a ride to altitude, without the pilot having to impress me with "Top Gun mad skilz". A safe ride to altitude, without any drama, is all skill I need to see demonstrated.

And it seems disingenuous for the OP to put this up here without specifics about whether this was something that happened long ago or something more recent. As others have said, we are a small sport and I think I can name all the PAC operators in the US. Those that I know are unlikely to allow such pilot buffoonery.

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Hi Chris,

Quote

Any cause for alram.



Most skydivers are happy, go-lucky types of people. And a lot of fun to be around.

However, most skydivers have never experienced an airplane crash. It's a fun & games until the S*** hits the fan.

The attached photo is of the results of a pilot/jumper who did a little show-boating. Hopefully, I'll never experience something like this ever again.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) And as Ray posted, you want to pay for the new instruments?

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ActionAir

***barrel rolls are fun so is zero g
I love fun jumper only loads



For every "fun" jumper that thinks its cool, there's one that hates the airplane ride. And unless you are a owner/operator you typically have no clue what gyros & instruments cost.

You want to do aerobatics, buy your own airplane!

...............................................................................

Agreed!
Aerobatics can "tumble" and damage the delicate gyroscopes in instruments.
I used to jump from a Cessna 182 that had a broken artificial horizon. It indicated a permanent 45 degree right bank. Glancing over the pilot's shoulder gave me vertigo! ... disoriented me ... I eventually slapped a post-it note over the AH.

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I saw one of the PAC test pilots perform a barrel roll at an airshow last year
This was by one of the most experienced pilots on the aircraft without any passengers on board. It had been performed a many times as practice apparently well away from people

End result was very impressive at the airshow but no way I would have wanted to be an unsuspecting passenger in that plane, rig or no rig

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To put it euphemistically, I would not be amused if a pilot did this. Last year we lost 11 people after a pilot allegedly performed a barrel roll in a Pilatus Porter PC-6 Turbo, which resulted in a catastrophic failure of one of the wings.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4551476;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=50;
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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jclalor

I haven't jumped at that DZ for almost 2 years, I've only made a handful in the last 2 years, the last time I was there they lost their PAC. I honestly didn't even know that they currently have a turbine, let alone a boogie this weekend.

And FWIW, who am I the world of skydiving to have, and then execute an "agenda"? If one really had an agenda, they could simply create another user name and then have at it, people do it here all the time.

The simple fact is, while bored at work last night and watching youtube, I saw this:

http://youtu.be/FJacFh_myWI

And that got me thinking about my own PAC experiences, and that's why I asked the question. There was nothing more and nothing less to it.



.................................................................................

The aforementioned video does not show a "barrel roll." The worst maneuver is a 90 degree wing-over. Granted, a 90 degree exceeds the legal definition (60 degree bank) of aerobatics, but wing-overs are survivable in most airplanes.

The air regulations are written in blood because too many poorly-trained pilots get bored and wreck airplanes by attempting to teach themselves aerobatics, in airplanes that were never designed for aerobatics. Bored young pilots repeat the same mistakes every year.

If pilots want to learn aerobatics, they should rent Pitts Specials.

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Really? That is your response? It isn't a prototype? Well, Bob Hoover was an accomplished USAF test pilot long before he was an airshow performer and when he flew those demos at airshows as a civilian with a well-maintained, specifically prepped aircraft, he was flying on an approved FAA waiver with no unsuspecting and uninformed pax along for the ride. There are a few rules your don't break -- you don't do acro in aircraft not certified for it (because you might break the airplane in ways that will be unsurvivable); you don't do acro with uninformed passengers (because they have not consented to your stupid show of ego); you don't violate the FARS when you are flying skydivers (because stupidity like this can affect the way the FAA deals with all skydiving operations as well as the one you are being paid to fly for). If you don't get this, I am sorry for your lack of education and aviation knowledge and hope I never run across you in the future.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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riggerrob

***I haven't jumped at that DZ for almost 2 years, I've only made a handful in the last 2 years, the last time I was there they lost their PAC. I honestly didn't even know that they currently have a turbine, let alone a boogie this weekend.

And FWIW, who am I the world of skydiving to have, and then execute an "agenda"? If one really had an agenda, they could simply create another user name and then have at it, people do it here all the time.

The simple fact is, while bored at work last night and watching youtube, I saw this:

http://youtu.be/FJacFh_myWI

And that got me thinking about my own PAC experiences, and that's why I asked the question. There was nothing more and nothing less to it.



.................................................................................

The aforementioned video does not show a "barrel roll." The worst maneuver is a 90 degree wing-over. Granted, a 90 degree exceeds the legal definition (60 degree bank) of aerobatics, but wing-overs are survivable in most airplanes.

The air regulations are written in blood because too many poorly-trained pilots get bored and wreck airplanes by attempting to teach themselves aerobatics, in airplanes that were never designed for aerobatics. Bored young pilots repeat the same mistakes every year.

If pilots want to learn aerobatics, they should rent Pitts Specials.

I am well aware that the video does not show a barrel roll, that's exactly what got me thinking about what I experienced several times.

I think it's painfully obvious to all by now, that I have (had) little to zero experience with FAA Aircraft regulations that would extend beyond the scope of skydiving. It should also be painfully obvious to all, that I vastly underestimated the response to such.

If I only knew that it was that big of a secret...

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jclalor

******I haven't jumped at that DZ for almost 2 years, I've only made a handful in the last 2 years, the last time I was there they lost their PAC. I honestly didn't even know that they currently have a turbine, let alone a boogie this weekend.

And FWIW, who am I the world of skydiving to have, and then execute an "agenda"? If one really had an agenda, they could simply create another user name and then have at it, people do it here all the time.

The simple fact is, while bored at work last night and watching youtube, I saw this:

http://youtu.be/FJacFh_myWI

And that got me thinking about my own PAC experiences, and that's why I asked the question. There was nothing more and nothing less to it.



.................................................................................

The aforementioned video does not show a "barrel roll." The worst maneuver is a 90 degree wing-over. Granted, a 90 degree exceeds the legal definition (60 degree bank) of aerobatics, but wing-overs are survivable in most airplanes.

The air regulations are written in blood because too many poorly-trained pilots get bored and wreck airplanes by attempting to teach themselves aerobatics, in airplanes that were never designed for aerobatics. Bored young pilots repeat the same mistakes every year.

If pilots want to learn aerobatics, they should rent Pitts Specials.

I am well aware that the video does not show a barrel roll, that's exactly what got me thinking about what I experienced several times.

I think it's painfully obvious to all by now, that I have (had) little to zero experience with FAA Aircraft regulations that would extend beyond the scope of skydiving. It should also be painfully obvious to all, that I vastly underestimated the response to such.

If I only knew that it was that big of a secret...

.................................................................................

Big secret?
Air regulations are easy to understand.
FARs are written around smoldering carters.
Every-time some pilot wrecks an airplane, air regulations are modified to limit that type of stupid behavior. Sadly, all the major lessons were learned decades ago, and now most young pilots hurt themselves by repeating mistakes made decades ago.
FARs are written the same way USPA BSRs are written. Most BSRs are based on bloody Accident, Incident and Malfunction reports. I read USPA Annual Fatality Summaries religiously for a many years. Those summaries cured me of a few bad habits (e.g. waving off with a pilot-chute in hand), but after a couple of decades, USPA AIMs started to blur and I only read the same mistakes being repeated.

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Watch this gruesome video of a B-52 (bomber with 8 turbojet engines) pilot botching a buzz job. Then ask yourself if his other crewmembers agreed it was ok to die that very day for HIS stupid ego.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Airshow pilots who perform aerobatic maneuvers in aircraft not "certificated" as aerobatic have demonstrated proficiency in the extreme, and have qualified for and been issued a Certificate of Waiver/Authorization by the FAA. As a 7,200 hour ATP (airline transport pilot certificate) with several years skywriting and banner towing, flying aerobatics in non-aerobatic WWII vintage aircraft within the provisions of FAA issued COAs, I limit my personal aerobatics to certified aircraft or freefall. I defer to Bob Hoover and his peers--they are TRULY extraordinary pilots.

An arrogant Twin Otter pilot pissed off a lot of local jumpers here with his flying and attitude a few years ago. Shortly after moving on, he made national news when he induced structural failure in another DH-6's flight control system while exceeding flight limitations for that aircraft. Came very close to destroying the aircraft, himself and probably the aircraft owner and his business in the post-crash lawsuit that would have ensued.

The risk to unsuspecting/uninformed passengers just isn't worth it.

(Text at the conclusion of B-52 crash video reads, "THE END." Amen.)
"It's not the number of breaths we take--it's the moments that take our breath away."

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Barrel rolls have been done by Cessna 172 pilots. The trick is that the recovery has to be progressive since there is G force limitation on wings (especially on a full load).
Boeing 727
DB Cooper #0290
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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OK, I'm bored so just as a point of reference- "Barrel" roll is often a misnomer. Rolls come in a lot of varieties i.e; snap roll, barrel roll, aileron roll, slow roll, etc. An aileron roll is the easiest- just gain entry speed, pick up the nose, unload the wing and bang the stick over. No more than 2 g's, if done right, and the wings don't know that they're upside down- all they know is the 2 g's. Really hard on the gyros, if they can't be caged.

Really stupid to do this in a fully loaded PAC with the CG at or near the aft limits. The pilot is responsible for the safety of the passengers and not only is this is an unnecessary risk, but he now has a planeload full of witnesses that can get his ticket pulled (and/or a huge fine)

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normiss

Well there goes the late night rolls in the jet.
hmpf.


FYI - Yes, I know and understand the foolishness and legalities involved as well as the risk.
However comma - it does happen, simply for fun.
I have seen a handful of pilots fired for flying any damn way they felt like.
I support that action.



you support which action: the flyin' or the firin'??

:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

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