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pchapman

Vigils not turning on lately??

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At a DZ I go to there have been 5 Vigils that failed to boot up and stay on properly in the last few weeks.

Anyone else seeing such weird stuff happen??

I personally only saw 3 of the cases. A couple Vigil's were quite friendly, showing "Hello" but not turning off or proceeding further. Another brand new one had problems booting, but when recycled and apparently OK, it shut itself off and did so again once or twice when restarted. (The rig was kept on the ground.)

Apparently, the DZ rigger says, 4 are from one batch bought at the same time by the DZ -- likely roughly early this year, I'm guessing from the rigs they were in. The other was recently purchased and installed. I'm not a rigger there, so I don't have any more info to report, like production dates.

The DZ has a mix of Cypres and Vigil. Over the years, failures on the ground have happened to both, just a couple for the Cypres and a little more for the Vigil -- until all these recent failures.

It probably won't happen, but let's try to keep focused on the narrow issue and not degenerate into the usual arguments about "Vigil sucks!" vs. "Cypres sucks too!". While any AAD can have a problem, I was there and saw multiple Vigils crapping out on startup in the last couple weekends.

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We had an issue here in The Netherlands with the weather - the air pressure was fairly high for a couple days and the vigils would only work (stay on) if you offset the firing altitude. Of course we're at or even below sea level so pressure may be higher than elsewhere, but so is Belgium where the things were made... Anyway I think they fixed that particular issue later on but it sure was weird, annoying and expensive - on DZ sold all their student vigils for cypreses if I recall correctly.

So, you might want to check the weather report ;)


ciel bleu,
Saskia

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The DZ has a mix of Cypres and Vigil. Over the years, failures on the ground have happened to both, just a couple for the Cypres and a little more for the Vigil -- until all these recent failures.




The above statement makes me wonder what other circumstances and or conditions are the units, both Cypres and Vigil, being exposed to that would cause them both to react in this manner? From what you have said, this is not a single occurrence and it is not specific to just one manufacturer's product.

Where are these rigs stored at when not being jumped and at what temperature? Also of interest to know, are the units turned on while in this storage area and then moved outside or moved outside and then turned on? Are they turned on in one location, and moved to another location that might be a slightly different altitude? Is a DZ offset being programed into the units before they display this behavior? Any error codes been observed? Have any of the units been sent back to their mfgr to be examined?

From the sounds of it, something is being done that is providing the units with information that it determines to be "not possible" within normal limits and is causing the units to shut down as a safety default in the self test. The fact that it has happened on multiple occasions, to different brand devices and the end result has all been the same and with the limited info you have provided so far, lends me to believe that the cause is possibly related to something else in the environment in which the rigs are being exposed to or having done to them.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Hi Lou,

To go into more detail about other failures, I think it was something like 2 Cypres' in the last decade, and maybe 3 or 4 Vigils (before the recent stuff) -- so it was never an epidemic.

As for the DZ and whether anything is unusual: In this case the rigs are in the big hangar, and turned on there, in a temperate climate summer (Ontario, Canada). It isn't as if problems were occurring only after cold soaking at -20C in winter or stored in a tin shed in the desert.

The only thing even slightly odd that I can think of, is that the runway is maybe 50' lower than the hangar area, and the LZ 20' lower than the hangar area. Everyone turns on their AAD in the hangar and no corrections are applied.

Those numbers don't get into the +/- 150ft mentioned in the Vigil manual, although it does actually interact with statements in the Cypres manual about not flying below the set landing elevation.

I'm sure the DZ rigger will be busy talking to A.A.D. & pulling AADs from rigs. Even before this, the DZO decided to buy a mix of both Cypres and Vigil -- so that he isn't 100% screwed if one day some company or organization decides to ground a particular brand....

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FWIW, both my CYPRESII-equipped rigs failed/would not post on a hot day when the temp of the room they were stored in exceeded 118 degrees. The Vigil-equipped rigs were fine. I don't know at what point heat has an impact on the Vigil units. One of my three Vigil rigs is older but has been updated. The others are brand new. Both CYPRES and Vigil claim an operating temp of around 70c; it was nowhere near 150+degrees in the teamroom when the AADs failed.

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Hi,

yes, we did indeed discover a minor software issue in a certain batch of LCD's within the control unit. This glitch has been isolated and fixed (updated software). It is not affecting the functionality of the 'main box'.

We have new controllers available for replacement with the new software for those that are affected by this.
If you experience this 'Hello' or start up problem, please contact your local rigger or VIGIL USA.

Our sincerest apology for this inconvenience but we are very confident that this is an isolated problem that will be handled very quickly.

Thank you!

Vladi Pesa
VIGIL USA

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It is good to hear from Vigil AAD on this matter.

I understand that skydiving manufacturing companies don't always tell the public about every little imperfection with their product. If a rig manufacturer adjusts the template for their tuck tabs on a certain rig size, they don't necessarily tell us.

But when it comes to AAD's, which are supposed to be very reliable, tend to work or not work, and have to be fully working for some people to jump, people get more suspicious when information is withheld.

I guess in a cold business decision, one can decide which is worse:
a) a service bulletin about something that is rare but won't kill anyone (just ground them), or
b) having the problem come out in public before the company says anything.

A company may make the decision based on to what degree users will want replacement parts, and to what degree the issue is seen negatively by the buying public.

Maybe the business decision is to not mention the problem and see if anyone else picks up on it. One little dz.com thread will likely largely soon be forgotten. Personally I am less interested in whether an AAD company had a problem, than how they act to deal with it.

My opinion is that not being upfront about the problem stinks, and I hope people remember this situation. I'd be equally hard on any of the AAD companies about openness when there's a problem.

Now some Vigil users are going to be wondering if they have a unit that has a software issue in some batch not revealed to them, that has a small chance (?) to cause them to be grounded at an inconvenient time.


This also brings up the issue:

If a Vigil won't turn on correctly, but later does turn on correctly (if that is possible), does one:
a) ground the unit, or
b) just say, "don't worry, probably just from that quirky LCD batch" and keep jumping?

Users will need some guidance.

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I had to deal with the firmware problem on a couple of these units. Both made this spring, with consecutive serial numbers.
I contacted Vigil USA by email, and I had a reply within an hour. After a short, and very professional conversation, They agreed to immediately ship new control units. They arrived at my house 48 hours later. I am in Canada, so this was an international shipment.
I can only praise the level of service and understanding of my problem displayed by the people I dealt with. This should not be surprising to anyone who realizes just who the North American distributor of this product is. All I can say is that good companies keep good company. And that I believe that any reasonable person can deal with confidence with these people.

Ken
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I sense that you're not happy with Vigil and feel that they should have contacted everyone about this.

Maybe I misread your post.

I am a Vigil dealer in the US. One of my customers bought a new unit and upon having it installed in his rig found it to be locked in the "Hello" mode.

I contacted the company and explained that the customer was leaving for a jump vacation in less than four days.

They immediately over-nighted a new unit and offered to pay for any additional rigging fees. He was more than pleased.

They explained that they just started encountering this problem and advised me to contact my customers, which I did.

Most dealers stock many units and sell to many customers. Once the company advises the dealer, it is the dealer's responsibility to contact the customers.

Vigil does not sell direct to the customers only to dealers.

It's impossible for them to know who has purchased the product.

And contrary to the belief of many of the DZ.comers the majority of skydivers I've encountered do not frequent this site.

I am very pleased with how Vigil has been handling this.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Good to hear that AAD / Vigil has been handling the problems promptly, when there's a problem with a unit.

Yes, I do think if a company has a bad batch the good thing to do is to publish an advisory bulletin.

And if they don't, hey, what's to stop someone from bringing it to public attention (even if just on dz.com), when they see a bunch of otherwise reliable AADs suddenly crap out?

The company got behind the curve, they didn't lead with the news. And when it happens like that, it looks like one is sloppy or covering up or making decisions disrespectful of the customer. Others may interpret it differently.

Perhaps the company was just starting to see the problems crop up, so they may not have figured out the whole picture until around when this thread came up. That's certainly a defense -- perhaps we were all learning about this at the same time.

If I had a Vigil that I had bought in the last year, or a bunch for a school, I'd sure like to know if mine were at elevated risk of not turning on properly.

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Two and a half years ago, a few dropzone.com posters reported this problem. Apparently AAD was aware of the problem then.

Two years ago I removed a Vigil from a customer's rig with the same problem. AAD told her it was a known issue.

Now we are being told that this is an isolated problem that they are just finding out about now?
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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Weird. I've had 2 come out of the silver suitcase dead this year and one that would deactivate actually during use which was just past waranty. All were promptly replaced but I'm thinking the QC from the factory is questionable. Great, are Vigils going to get banned too?

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Electronics of any device can fail. Nice to hear when a manufacturer responds promptly to the problem.
Very bad when the problem is [not] solved for months.



Let's stay focused on the Vigil issue here.

I started this thread about an AAD problem I saw.

You started a thread on an AAD problem you saw.

(To give it more publicity for you: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4115858
A Cypres 2 fire on the ground which was traced to a short in a damaged cutter cable. It took a long long time for Airtec to diagnose it, partially due to communication delays, but also due to Airtec not expecting that kind of rare problem -- they could have done better. )

It is easier for a company to respond promptly to a problem when they already know the problem was one they inadvertently caused.

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Airtek can not answer the question as a short circuit causes actuation cartridge. They gave a very incompetent response.
As for my example.
The device (Cypres-2) is not turned off and showed "0". The unit was sent to the manufacturer. I know three (Cypres-2) more such cases.
I think it wrong to consider the problem of a single device. Exactly the same problem in other devices.

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While sometimes symptoms can be similar the cause of a problem may not be. I hope all the firmware in the parts is adequately tested but sometimes failures like this can be as simple as the LCD control unit waits a maximum of 50ms for a response from the control but today the control unit did some additional processing during startup and took 55ms to response. Now the LCD got confused because it took too long to get a response.

While I believe strongly in writing code and designing parts that are fault tolerant, strange cases can sometimes bite you in the foot. AAD would have to comment on the difference between these failures, but I don't think it's fair to ASSume that they had the same cause.

-Michael

Quote

Two and a half years ago, a few dropzone.com posters reported this problem. Apparently AAD was aware of the problem then.

Two years ago I removed a Vigil from a customer's rig with the same problem. AAD told her it was a known issue.

Now we are being told that this is an isolated problem that they are just finding out about now?

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