Clear & Pull versus 5 Second Delay

[pchapman 261]

From a thread in the General Forum called "5 Second Delays, Dammit.":

Quote

FYI- 5 second delays are no longer part of USPA's training progression in the ISP

Not being in the US I don't know the USPA SIM well, or the reasons for particular decisions. It seems that the traditional 5 second delay has been replaced by a "clear and pull".

For both methods, as soon as a successful one is done, I believe students immediately move on to a 10 sec delay, where they have some more time to get used to stable freefall.

Anyone know the justification for the clear and pull?

For a student, a Clear & Pull may just be like a Training Ripcord Pull jump (or Training Throw Out or whatever it may be called depending on equipment) but "with a real handle". That way the student doesn't change their actions at all.

Once that gets the student over the nervousness of their first freefall, they go right to 10 sec where they have more time to regain stability if they have a problem.

I've seen plenty of 5 second delay students get head down or over on their backs, for whatever reason, maybe from an exit that would be fine with a static line to start a deployment very quickly after exit, or from general stiffness and moving around, or dearching when going for the handle. When there's only 5 seconds, it seems there's time enough to flip over, but no time to correct it, so watching their openings can be fun.

So is that the reason for doing a Clear & Pull and then a 10 sec delay? In other words, with the 10, there's more time for some problems to appear, but more importantly they have time to at least fix an exit mistake before having to pull?

[NWFlyer 2]

I believe that those terms were used pretty much interchangeably when I was a student. Clear and pull was never indicated to me to be "right off the step," instead there was a count that was to get us to roughly five seconds at pull time.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wrightskyguy 1]

A clear an pull is a 5 second delay in student training. I've put out a ton of first FF static line students as well as AFF grads doing their "clear and pulls". The student is far more likely to screw it up if he takes less than the 5 sec delay.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[Gato 0]

Quote

A clear an pull is a 5 second delay in student training.

Not where I jump - you have to do one clear & pull (off the strut, then arch and pull), then two 5 second delays, and they are not the same jump/delay.

I'm sure every DZ is different, this is just the program where I go; I'm pretty sure it's a mostly traditional SL method.

T.I.N.S.

[dragon2 0]

Over here the order of dummies, c&p, 5 secs, 10 secs has now been replaced by dummies then 10 secs first freefall, not sure when you get to do the other jumps but later on. The c&p is one of the most difficult jumps to do stress-wise so doing it later on seems a good idea to me (not an instructor though).

I know i couldn't quite get the hang of the dummies and they asked me if i would pull after 5 secs if they threw me out at 5k. Hell yeah! So I went 5 secs-10 secs-9000ft etc, did the c&p much later. It worked for me so I'm all for the change in curriculum....

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[pchapman 261]

Interesting.
So far it looks like the US Clear & Pull may or may not be interpreted as a 5 sec delay. Different DZ's do different things.
As for altitude, I do like having extra for 5 sec delays, and make sure the student knows it to help reduce their anxiety. At the DZ I'm at, the 5 sec delays are from the same altitude as the 10 second ones, and even then there's some spare height built in.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So far it looks like the US Clear & Pull may or may not be interpreted as a 5 sec delay.

they are absolutely, positively, NOT the same thing

just because some DZ make a conscious choice to force a delay and 'call' it a 'clear and pull' or a 'hop and pop' doesn't make either one a 5 sec delay (they may have good reason, or weak justification to do so, but they are not the same thing)

hope that clears it up

edit: Look - doing a clear and pull demonstates 2 very specific things.

1 - the ability to leave the airplane stable "Immediately" not after a couple seconds, not after 5 seconds, but the instant you leave. I do NOT like it when a student takes a "short" delay and some coach or instructor signs it off as a hop and pop or clear and pull (A license requirement). Not one bit.

2 - the ability to leave the airplane in an emergency when very low

we should not short change our students by signing off a 'fake' clear and pull

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I do like having extra for 5 sec delays,

what 'extra'? you likely travel more horizontally in those 5 seconds than vertically

if you are talking about just opening high, I don't care what the delay is. But in terms of teaching newbies, it's important they trust their skills enough to do real clear and pulls - even low enough to need their reserves.

Some idiot froze up in the door of a descending and malfunctioning airplane will kill the rest of us waiting for his ass to get out. Just because he thinks a 'clear and pull' is 5K with a slow 5 count, and now that he's at 1800, he's too scared to exit because he can't get stable right away to pull.


sorry to pick on your post - it's just handy, nothing specific

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

But if we go to the source it seems to indicate that clear and pull = up to five second delay (now, I suppose we could get into some semantics over what a "delay" is. If you're interpreting delay as "five seconds THEN initiate pull sequence..." there might be a difference).

2-page A license card:

5. Jump and deploy while stable within five seconds
after exit from 3,500 feet AGL.

4-page A license card (ISP) - requirements for category F:

• Clear and pull (5,500') _______ _____
• Clear and pull (3,500') _______ _____

From the category F section of the SIM:

5. Clear and pull (AFF students only-IAD and static-line students have already met the clear-and-pull requirement in Category C.)

a. A clear and pull is used for emergency exits and pre-planned low-altitude jumps.

b. Use a familiar, stable exit technique.

c. Present your hips to the relative wind and execute normal pull procedures (without wave-off) to deploy within five seconds of exit.

d. Expect the parachute to open in relation to the relative wind, not overhead as usual.

e. The sequence consists of a clear and pull from two altitudes:

(1) first from 5,500 feet

(2) once successful, from 3,500 feet




I looked all through the Category C section and couldn't see a good definition of "clear and pull" there.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Gato 0]

Quote

But in terms of teaching newbies, it's important they trust their skills enough to do real clear and pulls - even low enough to need their reserves.

Thanks for saying that - in terms of my own safety, I'm really glad I'm going through the Static Line>AFP progression, as it's no big deal to get out low (3200'). As you said, I wouldn't have passed the H&P if I'd taken a delay.

The idea that we're doing something fun, I think, sometimes overshadows the fact that we are also training to be experts in dealing with aircraft emergencies. I'm confident I won't freeze in the door.

Just for comparison purposes, here's the progression we go through at MRVS:

(3) Static Line
(2) PRCP
(1) Clear & Pull
(2) 5 sec. Delay
(2) 10 sec. Delay
(2) 20 sec. Delay
(2) 30 sec. Delay
- Consul/Coached jumps to A License

T.I.N.S.

[pchapman 261]

Quote

what 'extra'? you likely travel more horizontally in those 5 seconds than vertically

if you are talking about just opening high, I don't care what the delay is. But in terms of teaching newbies, it's important they trust their skills

When newbies are doing their first freefall, it is about making them more comfortable for a particularly stressful jump -- knowing that they aren't goint to be "too low" after 5.01 seconds helps them focus on their task. (Even if they are supposed to pull whether stable or not.)

What you are talking is important but comes into play later on -- getting students mentally comfortable with lower altitudes, once they already can easily physically exit stable and pull. More of an issue for AFF students obviously.


And NWFlyer - thanks for looking through the SIM for the details of the wording. I had only skimmed it.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The first freefall should be done according to the same count as the practice freefalls IMHO. We generally refer to it as a 3 second delay:
ARCH THOUSAND REACH THOUSAND PULL THOUSAND.

[KIA 0]

Quote

The first freefall should be done according to the same count as the practice freefalls IMHO. We generally refer to it as a 3 second delay:
ARCH THOUSAND REACH THOUSAND PULL THOUSAND.

That was the case for me here in Oz.

[tbrown 26]

Maybe this 4000 ft or higher bullshit has blurred the distinction. Put 'em out at 2500 ft and tell them to look up at the plane as they leave instead of down. they'll clear and pull, don't you worry.

In 1974 I made my first freefall as a clear & pull from 3200 ft. The drill was "arch, look, reach, pull", for a ripcord pull, with the handle mounted on my right main lift web, approx where the cutaway handle is now mounted. After two good C&P's, we'd move up to a 5 second delay, counting, "Arch thousand, two thousand, three thousand, look, reach, pull."

Given that a lot of students will now reach for a BOC without looking, there's still no reason why they can't do an honest clear and pull from ANY altitude. It's still the way I make a hop & pop even now, after all if I'm making one I'm going for the canopy flight and not some short freefall that does nothing but rob me of canopy time.

Looks like USPA has blurred the distinction by trying to make all the people happy all the time.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[wrightskyguy 1]

on the 5 sec delay we teach our static line students, the pull sequence starts at three, arch thousand, 2 thousand, reach thousand, pull. I don't want a student trying to pull any sooner than that lest he dump on the step.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[Baksteen 84]

I hope your eing sarcasticv, but I'm gonna reply anyway.

Put em out at 2500?
Come on, they're under enough stress as it is.
AFF because the ground is close enough already, and SL because they have to do it all themselves now. If you're also going to eleminate all the time they migh have to fix line-twists or whatever, I think youd' be looking at a lot of students combining their first reserve ride with their first CP, necesarily so or not.
It's easy to "tell" a student something, but who's to say they actually remember to do what you said?

I'm not an instructor, obviously, however, my first freefall was a relatively short while ago.

And one more thing; I'm always happy to provide a new student with a little extra comfort when they're exiting, even if it means some discomfort to myself.
We've all been there.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[wrightskyguy 1]

Quote

Maybe this 4000 ft or higher bullshit has blurred the distinction. Put 'em out at 2500 ft and tell them to look up at the plane as they leave instead of down. they'll clear and pull, don't you worry

***Are you serious? That sounds like a comment from someone that has'nt worked with students. You can tell them to look up at the plane till you're blue in the face, but the fact is that just as many 1st FF students look down as up, probably more, and when they freak out and try to get stable before pulling, I'd like them to have a little cushion. The same thing applies to AFF students doing their first low jump. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know any instructors anywhere that would put students out at 2500 ft. Be careful what you say here, some may take you seriously.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

• Quote

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

on the 5 sec delay we teach our static line students, the pull sequence starts at three, arch thousand, 2 thousand, reach thousand, pull. I don't want a student trying to pull any sooner than that lest he dump on the step.

I challenge you to leave most any jump plane in a normal student boxman and get your pilot chute out fast enough to throw it anywhere near the airplane.

Arch, reach, feel, pull sequence gets one very clear.

If one leaves stable the moment they exit, the student has time to arch, smile, wave at me, hold for a second or two and pull - all within the first 5 seconds. I watched a student do just that this season. I asked him why he waited to pull - he was told to count to 5.

This assumes we aren't teaching students to leave with their hands on the ripcord - CrW style.

In other words, telling the student to purposely count to 5, rather than drilling a nice calm pull sequence (that can take one second or 5 seconds or whatever), seems to be counterproductive.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[frazeebd 0]

I recently did a hop & pop and did a nice, relaxed clear and pull that took about 3 seconds total, it was stable and all. BUT... I wouldn't have been able to do that a month ago... I mean on my training hop & pop you couldn't have said anything to me that would have really helped me learn how to stay stable on exit.... I just had to do it and do it again to figure it out, all the while looking like a winged tie-fighter until I got a grip on the airstream (yes, a Star Wars reference, so shoot me, lol)

Although I'm more confident and capable now, I'm glad I had the extra altitude. Knowing that I only had 5 seconds was stressful enough without the confidence to say "I can do this, no problem!"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

on the 5 sec delay we teach our static line students, the pull sequence starts at three, arch thousand, 2 thousand, reach thousand, pull. I don't want a student trying to pull any sooner than that lest he dump on the step.

Isn't that a 4 second delay?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

BUT... I wouldn't have been able to do that a month ago...

And I hope you didn't get signed off on it either until you could do it right (exactly as you noted in your first sentence)

Quote

Although I'm more confident and capable now, I'm glad I had the extra altitude. Knowing that I only had 5 seconds was stressful enough without the confidence to say "I can do this, no problem!"

I don't care what the exit altitude is for a hop and pop - exit altitude has NOTHING to do with executing a qualifying hop and pop. My concern is purposely instructing doing extra delay when it's time to sign it off.

there is nothing wrong with taking the extra time while learning....

but, the signoff should be a true hop and pop. I don't think people should sign off night jumps for a mid afternoon skydive either. I don't think people should sign off a 2 meter accuracy if you land 20 feet away........

Quote

Knowing that I only had 5 seconds was stressful enough

this is a BIG part of my problem with putting out the time to do it, rather than just drill the action sequence - give them a deadline and make them nervous - I want them to execute it correctly, not race some clock. Teach the mechanics and make the requirement to be smooth - don't force a delay - and the student WILL be clear, and he WILL get it done in less then 5 or 3 or whatever. At it'll be a true pass

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[frazeebd 0]

Quote

there is nothing wrong with taking the extra time while learning....

but, the signoff should be a true hop and pop.

Well, I can see you're point there. I know that when we did my groundschool we discussed emergency exits, and when exiting on the main we were taught that you leave with you're hand on the PC, ready to throw it as soon as you are clear of the plane...
I guess that goes along with what you were saying? Because the Hop & Pop as they are called at my DZ don't have us do that. It's more of a quicker skydive from 5k-6k feet.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

the Hop & Pop as they are called at my DZ don't have us do that. It's more of a quicker skydive from 5k-6k feet.

Hop and Pop, Clear and Pull (any exit altitude)
Ready, Set, Arch, Feel, Pull

note there is not time or stopwatch here at all

Short Delay (any exit altitude)
Ready, Set, Arch, 1, 2, 3, ........whatever, Feel, Pull

License requirements specify two specific exit altitudes, but by that point it shouldn't matter at all.

It's really that simple.

And, emergency exit with hand on pilot chute (since hand on PC and not reserve handle Defines - this means you are high enough for your main, so one doesn't HAVE to have a hand on the PC) - arch, pull

the important bit is just calmness

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[frazeebd 0]

Quote

And, emergency exit with hand on pilot chute (since hand on PC and not reserve handle Defines - this means you are high enough for your main, so one doesn't HAVE to have a hand on the PC) - arch, pull

Maybe this is just the instructor then, but we were taught that if you bail out on you're reserve you have a handle on the reserve ripcord... if you bail out on the main (higher altitude) then you bail out with you're hand on the PC. I guess this isn't taught that way everywhere then?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

And, emergency exit with hand on pilot chute (since hand on PC and not reserve handle Defines - this means you are high enough for your main, so one doesn't HAVE to have a hand on the PC) - arch, pull

Maybe this is just the instructor then, but we were taught that if you bail out on you're reserve you have a handle on the reserve ripcord... if you bail out on the main (higher altitude) then you bail out with you're hand on the PC. I guess this isn't taught that way everywhere then?

I've never tried to exit with a hand on the PC - I can see myself doing an unstable exit the first time I try that. Interesting experiment for a HnP day. As he said, if you're leaving high enough to use the main, the 20ft you might save isn't important. I exit, then I reach for the PC. For the 3500 I did to complete the A, I hurled myself backwards out of the 182, did a forward role, steadied and pulled, all within 3 seconds.