Two Stong Pop Top rigging errors I'd never seen

[councilman24 36]

If you've never packed a strong pop top pilot rig this will make no sense to you.

Opened and Strong seat rig to inspect and pack and one loop hung up. (Yes the pin was out.) Pulled a few pounds on the cap and took the attached photo. Ask my wife to come watch while I tried to figure out what was wrong. For another witness. Suddenly it cleared. By look and feel I believe this loop was under one of the rubber bands around the line stows. In other words it was being held under a rubber band against the lines. How much it was in between the lines is unknown. It cleared before I could see. This rig had a C-9 without a diaper in it so the stows were bulky and the bands tight.

How could this happen? It's not uncommon for me to have to rethread the bodkins through the pack for some reason. I either follow a pull up cord or my finger from the grommet between the line stows. If not careful it's easy to get the bodkin through some lines. I wouldn't expect this to hold a loop has strongly as this one was. But a loop against the rubber band would creates significantly more friction.

I didn't actually see the routing. But as I started to separate the flaps with my finger it let go. It took a somewhat indirect route coming out. This is the only explination I could develop.

Would it have cleared? Eventually with a tumbling pilot. It only took about 5 pounds and some manipulation to free it. But it quite likely would have been delayed. BTW I know what that is like having had a 1400' reserve total on a SST Pop Top.

I packed 7 strong seat rigs that I hadn't packed before in the last few weeks. 5 of them had significant but not necessarily deadly errors like this one.

Three rigs, from two differnent riggers from different parts of the country, had the same second error. The excess PC mesh and tapes below the spring, including the bridle attachment loop and the end of the bridle, had been stuffed up inside the end of the coil of the spring. This pulled the PC canopy fabric tight against the outside of the spring. I don't know if someone is teaching this or it is a misinterpretation of the text from the manual....

Stand the pilot chute upright on the
locking strap. While compressing
pilot chute, neatly and symmetrically
tuck the pilot chute’s canopy cloth
in between the coils of the spring.

My emphasis

This of course refers to tucking the fabric in between the coils SIDEWAYS.

The PC's packed this way failed to launch well and it took some nontrivial effort to pull the stiff mesh from the middle of the coil.

Would these have worked? Eventually. Delayed? Maybe.

Let's be careful out there.

I'd like to here if someone believes stuffing the mesh up the end of the coil IS the right thing to do. Again, these were two different riggers from different parts of the country. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Is someone teaching this way? It's obviously wrong to me just watching the PC launch and I've never seen a PC packed this way or heard of it being done this way in 30 years.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[theonlyski 3]

Terry,

I've never been a fan of the Strong seat/chest containers that I have...


Getting held against a rubber band would make sense, if the flaps on either side of the grommet weren't pulled up past the line stows (guess that's another 'If you've never packed a strong pop top pilot rig this will make no sense to you' thing). I know my container (304 seat rig) is equipped with them, but not sure if all of them are. Also, could be that it was pinched in between canopy/lines that had a chance to sit and settle.

I'm not crazy about how the lines get stowed either, took me and a couple of master riggers a while to figure it out reading the manual (and one of them WORKED at Strong for a while!)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[councilman24 36]

I don't like that the line aren't stowed on the diapers. You can if the strong canopy is in any other rig but not theirs.

The modern strongs don't have buffer strips. I'm pretty sure a bodkin go shoved through between the line and the rubber bands. And that's where the loop ended up.

I've seen about 10 different methods of stowing the excess line, and probably done about 5 of them over the 25 years I've been packing them. The manual's used to be MUCH worse.

I have several warbird pilots that have them so I've seen all the variations. Including the Aerosport canopy in a seat rig. Canopy in a free sleeve with all the lines stowed on the sleeve.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

I don't like that the line aren't stowed on the diapers. You can if the strong canopy is in any other rig but not theirs.

I'd love to be able to stow the lines on the diaper!

Quote

I've seen about 10 different methods of stowing the excess line, and probably done about 5 of them over the 25 years I've been packing them.Angelic The manual's used to be MUCH worse.

It's ambiguous enough as it is!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[peter.draper 0]

"I'd like to here if someone believes stuffing the mesh up the end of the coil IS the right thing to do. Again, these were two different riggers from different parts of the country. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Is someone teaching this way? It's obviously wrong to me just watching the PC launch and I've never seen a PC packed this way or heard of it being done this way in 30 years."

I was always (on Strongs AND Racers) taught to make sure NONE of the mesh or fabric was under the spring. John Sherman gave me a very convincing demonstration of how to lock up a spring like that (and by twisting the spring). It's very easy to compress the spring and feed the fabric BETWEEN the coils - thanks for pointing these out Terry

[sundevil777 93]

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...make sure NONE of the mesh or fabric was under the spring.

How can mesh or fabric not be under the spring? Being under it doesn't mean it is pushed into it from below, but even if some is pushed into the bottom, I don't see how that would lockup the whole thing. I guess it is just hard to visualize as I haven't had the opportunity to try such things.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[councilman24 36]

Think of it this way. None of the fabric that isn't under the spring when its extended should be under it when its compressed.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 93]

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Think of it this way. None of the fabric that isn't under the spring when its extended should be under it when its compressed.

That of course makes sense. So, you're saying that somebody would actually put ALL the excess fabric/mesh into the middle - into the bottom? That seems obviously stupid, I figured just a bit of excess might be inserted there.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Terry,

Ah. the life of a rigger.

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It's obviously wrong to me just watching the PC launch and I've never seen a PC packed this way or heard of it being done this way in 30 years.

This was fairly common practice on main pilot chutes back in the 60's w/ripcord main deployment.

You shoulda been around in those days; then nothing will surprise you today.

JerryBaumchen

[LouDiamond 1]

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Hi Terry,

Ah. the life of a rigger.

Quote

It's obviously wrong to me just watching the PC launch and I've never seen a PC packed this way or heard of it being done this way in 30 years.

This was fairly common practice on main pilot chutes back in the 60's w/ripcord main deployment.

You shoulda been around in those days; then nothing will surprise you today.

JerryBaumchen

We still use spring loaded PCs on main canopies in the military as well as ripcord main deployment. Any excess mesh is "cleaned" up as the packer compresses the spring coil by coil so in effect, it is pushed in from the sides. There is typically a little bit of excess sticking out the sides/circumference by the time you have your hand on the PC Cap. This excess is cleaned up by pushing it under the cap. It is illustrated in the manual HERE.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[nt8us 0]

i did not know that the strong pop top was approved for use with a 28' c9. its quite tuff to get a 24' flat in there.does strong make a bigger container for the c9??

[councilman24 36]

I don't think either of these guys are that old.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

I'm talking about pilot emergency rigs. Not the chest mount.


The manual for a seat with a C-9 is here.
http://www.strongparachutes.com/Documents/PDF_Files/30610.pdf

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnRich 4]

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How can mesh or fabric not be under the spring? Being under it doesn't mean it is pushed into it from below, but even if some is pushed into the bottom, I don't see how that would lockup the whole thing. I guess it is just hard to visualize as I haven't had the opportunity to try such things.

What they're talking about is having the excess fabric sitting underneath the spring. That method pulls all the fabric from the sides taut. That's a bad idea because the force of the coiled spring itself is now holding the spring compressed, and preventing it from expanding to launch. In order for the spring to expand, it has to pull the fabric out from underneath itself.

Instead, by pushing the excess fabric into the coils as you compress it, the spring is uninhibited, and able to expand and launch cleanly. This is easy to do as you compress the spring one coil at a time, starting from the bottom and working your way up to the top. I start with a left hand on the bottom coil, then the right hand the next coil up, pushing it down on top the first coil, then with the now-free left hand go up one more coil, and so on. At each step, pushing the fabric evenly into the sides of the coil all the way around. That keeps the spring straight and manageable, dealing with only one small segment at a time.

I have over 5,500 jumps with spring-loaded pilot chutes, so I've done this a lot, but I'm not a rigger...

[riggerrob 558]

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i did not know that the strong pop top was approved for use with a 28' c9. its quite tuff to get a 24' flat in there.does strong make a bigger container for the c9??

....................................................................

Yes, Strong does make a larger version - to accomodate C-9 canopies.

You really must be OLD.
Remember that Crown Assets Disposal - and the U.S. military - quit selling intact (with suspension lines still attached) round canopies circa 1980.
It has been a couple of decades since anyone asked me to pack a T-10 reserve!

[riggerrob 558]

That reminds me of some of the foolishness that Fliteline endured when they first introduced the Reflex.
Some brain-dead, military-surplus, red-neck, good-old-boy, back East, etc. miss-read the manual and stuffed all the mesh and fabric BETWEEN the composite cap and the cosmetic fabric cap!

[riggerrob 558]

"

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Terry,

I'm not crazy about how the lines get stowed either, took me and a couple of master riggers a while to figure it out reading the manual (and one of them WORKED at Strong for a while!)

"

..........................................................................

Agreed!

Even though I have packed a couple hundred Strong PEPs, I always have to look at the manual to remind myself how to stow the suspension lines.

It would make far more sense for SEI to say that it is okay to stow all the lines on diaper of seat packs and their 311 wedge-shaped back type PEP.

When I suggested that - during my last visit to Orlando - factory riggers shrugged and said they were comfortable with two-stow diapers. The problem is that two-stow diapers are the most difficult to teach rigger apprentices. Modern rigger apprentices can learn full-stow diapers in a day or two.

As for stowing all the lines in the pack tray ... back around 1980, SEI published propaganda (errr. drop test results) proving that even two-stow diapers are significantly more reliable. I would much prefer to see the C-9s (packed into Para-Cushion Warbird models) with Butler's full-stow diapers.
Hint: Butler has been selling (after-market) diapers to Para-Phernalia for decades.

While working for Butler ... I learned that two stow (Type 2) diapers were only helpful when packing thin rigs ... like long back (aka. chair) type PEPs ... you know, the back packs that are so long they almost extend to your knees ... any other type of container is quicker to pack with a full-stow diaper.

[councilman24 36]

Very much like the Reflex error except pulled to the other end. At least the canopy had a chance to catch air. But it sure didn't launch very well. It may have been stuffed after collapsed.

I'm hoping the strong diaper issue is solved soon.

BTW it's a three stow diaper, but I know what you mean.

BRING BACK THE AEROSPORT IN THE FREE SLEEVE!!!!!!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[firemedic 7]

I'm hoping the strong diaper issue is solved soon.
_______________________________________________

Terry, I hadn't heard of any issues with the SEI diapers.
Nothing on their website.
I'd appreciate any info you have related to that.
On a side note. I don't care much for a 3 stow diaper. Seems to me there is a much greater chance for a pilot tumbling out of an AC to get tangled in the lines or snag one with a 3 stow diaper deployment.

[pchapman 261]

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.
On a side note. I don't care much for a 3 stow diaper. Seems to me there is a much greater chance for a pilot tumbling out of an AC to get tangled in the lines or snag one with a 3 stow diaper deployment.

I'm a little lost.
You are comparing a full stow 3 bight diaper to a 2 bight line equalization diaper, lines in the pack tray??

[councilman24 36]

Strong's diapers are three locking stows, three bights, with half the lines the rest in the tray. I think we all are on the same page.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 261]

Thanks, I forgot that only the very old Strong line equalization diapers are 2 stow (2 bight), and that anything newer is 3 stow. Not to be confused with full stow 3 bight diapers.

So, yes, I agree with others that getting the lines out of the pack tray and onto a full stow diaper is so much nicer, for everything except bulk distribution.

[firemedic 7]

Quote

Quote

.
On a side note. I don't care much for a 3 stow diaper. Seems to me there is a much greater chance for a pilot tumbling out of an AC to get tangled in the lines or snag one with a 3 stow diaper deployment.

I'm a little lost.
You are comparing a full stow 3 bight diaper to a 2 bight line equalization diaper, lines in the pack tray??

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear with what I'd said. I was comparing a 3 stow diaper with the remainder of the lines stowed in the container and a diaper where all the lines are stowed on the diaper. It just seems there is a greater risk for an unstable pilot getting wrapped up or snagging lines with the system that has lines stowed in the container versus a system that has all lines stowed on the diaper.

[firemedic 7]

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Thanks, I forgot that only the very old Strong line equalization diapers are 2 stow (2 bight), and that anything newer is 3 stow. Not to be confused with full stow 3 bight diapers.

So, yes, I agree with others that getting the lines out of the pack tray and onto a full stow diaper is so much nicer, for everything except bulk distribution.

Sorry, I missed this post before I responded to the last one.

[riggerrob 558]

It makes little difference whether the diaper has two locking stows - or three locking stows - if you only stow the left line group.
Then you are still faced with the hassle of stowing un-even line groups in the pack tray.

As for bulk distribution ... it is only a problem in the thinnest of containers (Long Softie, etc.). Long-back (aka. chair) type containers are the only type of PEP that benefit from spreading the line bulk over a larger area of the pack tray.
And that is only relevant if the container needs to be thin across the top because the pilot's head is too close to the canopy (by canopy, I mean that clear Plexiglas, shiny thing that pilots like to stare out of).

Every other type of container (lap, back, seat and chest) is quicker to pack with all the lines stowed on the diaper. Full-stow diapers are also better for PEPs because they lift the lines clear of the user before (most) pilots can tumble badly enough to interfere with deployment.

Most of Butler's long-back (aka. chair) type PEPs are thick enough across the top (2 inches for Lopo and 3 inches for C-9) that you can easily pack a full-stow diaper across the top of the container.
Similalry, Long-Softies are normally packed with a full-stow diaper across the top of the container.