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PhreeZone

Argus failure - Gold Goast MS - USA

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess



Nope, you got me there.

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess



Nope, you got me there.



sooo.. you still like aviacom, or can some-, ANYhow stand behind their company and defend them!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess



Nope, you got me there.



sooo.. you still like aviacom, or can some-, ANYhow stand behind their company and defend them!?



Please show where I said I like them (since this fiasco began, that is).

And while you say you couldn't care less, it is clear to all that you care a great deal.

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess



Nope, you got me there.



sooo.. you still like aviacom, or can some-, ANYhow stand behind their company and defend them!?



Please show where I said I like them (since this fiasco began, that is).

And while you say you couldn't care less, it is clear to all that you care a great deal.



well, you did state something that could be interpreted as such up-thread.
i'm not trying to attack you here, just stating..

oh, yes, i DO care. if my AAD should fail to save me, i would care a GREAT DEAL if that AAD was killing me, in case i wouldnt/COULDNT save my own sorry ass.
and yup, my container has it's cutter located on top of the reserve, so yes, i'm kinda concerned. not really me in this case, but for fellow jumpers.

and in THAT regard, really, aviacom can suck my big donkey balls.

thank god it's prohibited to jump where i live..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Nope, you got me there.



I'm not trying to "get" anyone Paul. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible.
I don't work for any AAD manufacturer, and I'm not sponsored from any of them.

I'm just a rigger who is doing his best to stay updated with the latest information.

Blue skies
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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It was a recalled cutter, and that's said in the letter.




No, It was not. According to this service bulletin, the cutter was good to go.

The rig was Dolphin and the cutter is bellow the freebag.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and missed some additional SB among the whole mess



Nope, you got me there.



sooo.. you still like aviacom, or can some-, ANYhow stand behind their company and defend them!?



Please show where I said I like them (since this fiasco began, that is).

And while you say you couldn't care less, it is clear to all that you care a great deal.



well, you did state something that could be interpreted as such up-thread.
i'm not trying to attack you here, just stating..

oh, yes, i DO care. if my AAD should fail to save me, i would care a GREAT DEAL if that AAD was killing me, in case i wouldnt/COULDNT save my own sorry ass.
and yup, my container has it's cutter located on top of the reserve, so yes, i'm kinda concerned. not really me in this case, but for fellow jumpers.

and in THAT regard, really, aviacom can suck my big donkey balls.

thank god it's prohibited to jump where i live..



"Somewhere up thread" is not a quote.

Not wanting to lynch them is not at all the same as liking them.

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A "recalled cutter"? Yes, absolutely, in some sense. But no, not in another.

Yes indeed in the sense that it was of the early type of cutter that is in the recall.

... whether or not that particular cutter in that particular rig would be recalled at that particular time.

In version 1 of the recall bulletin (SB AMMO050910/1) it might have been recalled, as only a particular 2007 batch was involved. (The Gold Coast report doesn't say exactly when the cutter was built.)

In version 2 (... /2) in Sept '10 the cutter was in the recall and had to be replaced by the end of the year at the latest. (If in use of course.)

In version 3 in Dec '10 the recall timing was extended to the first repack after 31 March 2011. That's the wait described in the original Gold Coast report.

In version 4 in April '11, the rules changed to
a) replacement at next repack if cutter above PC
b) no need for replacement if below the PC.

In that case, the particular cutter in that particular rig was no longer recalled. (And the cutter was banned in the Dolphin by Altico for only a few days in spring until they rescinded their bulletin.)

And in that version 4, Aviacom writes that due to "extensive tests", those early (pre-Aug 07) cutters "have shown no lack of performance."

Thus Aviacom is still implying that absolutely nothing is wrong with their cutters.


EDIT:
Funny, at the same time as I wrote this, Aviacom's brand new bulletin, SB AMMO050811 , got published on dz.com.

It bans all of the old cutters immediately before the next jump.

Doesn't matter if you have a below the pilot chute cutter or not.

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A "recalled cutter"? Yes, absolutely, in some sense. But no, not in another.

Yes indeed in the sense that it was of the early type of cutter that is in the recall.

... whether or not that particular cutter in that particular rig would be recalled at that particular time.

In version 1 of the recall bulletin (SB AMMO050910/1) it might have been recalled, as only a particular 2007 batch was involved. (The Gold Coast report doesn't say exactly when the cutter was built.)

In version 2 (... /2) in Sept '10 the cutter was in the recall and had to be replaced by the end of the year at the latest. (If in use of course.)

In version 3 in Dec '10 the recall timing was extended to the first repack after 31 March 2011. That's the wait described in the original Gold Coast report.

In version 4 in April '11, the rules changed to
a) replacement at next repack if cutter above PC
b) no need for replacement if below the PC.

In that case, the particular cutter in that particular rig was no longer recalled. (And the cutter was banned in the Dolphin by Altico for only a few days in spring until they rescinded their bulletin.)

And in that version 4, Aviacom writes that due to "extensive tests", those early (pre-Aug 07) cutters "have shown no lack of performance."

Thus Aviacom is still implying that absolutely nothing is wrong with their cutters.



Yes, that's what Deyan said, and I responded that he was right.

And now, Deyan has posted yet another Aviacom SB, dated 6 August 2011, requiring all cutters manufactured before Sept 2007 to be replaced before the next jump.

So there is no longer any notion that the earlier cutters are okay. It is about time. But it is very likely too little too late.

And it still remains to be seen is if any cutters will actually be available, or if anybody wants them.

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Nope, you got me there.



I'm not trying to "get" anyone Paul. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible.
I don't work for any AAD manufacturer, and I'm not sponsored from any of them.

I'm just a rigger who is doing his best to stay updated with the latest information.

Blue skies



Okay. "get" was a poor choice of words on my part.

I thank you for your posting a more accurate account than I did.

I'd decided some time ago that I didn't want an early cutter, and that made it easy to forget that they were, in fact, still allowed in some instances.

They are no longer, and that is a very good thing. Too little too late most likely.

I still see the whole situation as extremely unfortunate.

I don't believe it was their intent to dupe people, but they allowed themselves to be distracted, very likely by financial considerations, and that led to actions that many many people, myself included, find unacceptable.

Nobody wins in this.

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this one for example:

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personally, i think one is enough.

how about the guy from poland, not sure in his case..



One what?

Every parachute, h/c or AAD that you may own has killed "one".

If "one is enough", how do you still use any of your gear?

In a more general question, open to the whole audience, what is the story behind all the hatred for Aviacom?

I am unhappy with Aviacom. I am VERY unhappy with Aviacom. Just ask Karel to tell you about the emails he has gotten from me. Aviacom has been doing a terrible job of responding to this whole thing about their cutters.

But some people here seem to hate them with a passion that I just don't understand.

Are they the anti-christ? The devil incarnate?

Why does it go so much further than simply being unhappy (sure, in the extreme) with them, and deciding not to do business with them?

Every major manufacturer of our gear has people who are horribly unhappy with them, and I have pretty much never witnessed this sort of widespread hatred.

Okay, there's the Rhys thing about Airtec, but that is not the sort of groundswell that we've seen here about Aviacom.

The Aviacom phenomenon we are seeing here is way more than that. And I don't think it is only people who are directly affected either.

What is it that is making people so passionate about this?


not trying to nit-pick here, but you sure seem to show some sort of affection for aviacom.

please, dont take this as a personal attack in any way, but defending a company that acts as poorly as aviacom does seems to imply you're involved..

in your honori i agree in being against "brand X" just because they are brandX, but hey, having shown such a disregard for possible safety-"features" like aviacom has in the past.. NO-FUCKING-WAY i'd ever stand behind their products, nor defend them in any way.. :|
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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paul, no shit here, my pre-poster pretty much sums it up. cutter needs to be replaced, no cutters available, rig is jumped anyway, sadly, jumper in question DIES because of lack - of what!? MANUFACTURERS response, MANUFACTURERS determination, whatever.. :S



VB, the jumpers died because they failed to save themselves. Don't confuse it with the Argus failing to cut their loops. MAYBE it would've saved them, but it surely didn't force them to not throw some nylon in the wind.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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paul, no shit here, my pre-poster pretty much sums it up. cutter needs to be replaced, no cutters available, rig is jumped anyway, sadly, jumper in question DIES because of lack - of what!? MANUFACTURERS response, MANUFACTURERS determination, whatever.. :S



VB, the jumpers died because they failed to save themselves. Don't confuse it with the Argus failing to cut their loops. MAYBE it would've saved them, but it surely didn't force them to not throw some nylon in the wind.


dude, u're a fucking rigger, right!?

it's not that them jumpers failed to save themselves, which THEY DID; but it was aviacom's FAILURE that those jumpers involved were FUCKING UNABLE to save themselves BECAUSE THEIR FUCKING RESERVE-CONTAINERS WERE LOCKED IN THE FUCKING PLACE!!!

because - wait for it - aviacom's CUTTER - sealed their reserves in place!!!!!!!!!!

i cant make myself any fucking clearer than this.

:|
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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it's not that them jumpers failed to save themselves, which THEY DID; but it was aviacom's FAILURE that those jumpers involved were FUCKING UNABLE to save themselves BECAUSE THEIR FUCKING RESERVE-CONTAINERS WERE LOCKED IN THE FUCKING PLACE!!!

because - wait for it - aviacom's CUTTER - sealed their reserves in place!!!!!!!!!!

i cant make myself any fucking clearer than this.

:|



You could try, seeing as a Dolphin container has the cutter located on the backpad, which wouldn't interfere with the normal operation of the reserve if manually activated (which is WHY they're not banned by Altico anymore).

Yes, I am a FAA Senior rigger (back and seat), how about you?

I'm not fending for Argus, I think it's bullshit that they put out a product that fails so much, but saying that the product KILLED these victims is just wrong.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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it's not that them jumpers failed to save themselves, which THEY DID; but it was aviacom's FAILURE that those jumpers involved were FUCKING UNABLE to save themselves BECAUSE THEIR FUCKING RESERVE-CONTAINERS WERE LOCKED IN THE FUCKING PLACE!!!

because - wait for it - aviacom's CUTTER - sealed their reserves in place!!!!!!!!!!

i cant make myself any fucking clearer than this.

:|



You could try, seeing as a Dolphin container has the cutter located on the backpad, which wouldn't interfere with the normal operation of the reserve if manually activated (which is WHY they're not banned by Altico anymore).

Yes, I am a FAA Senior rigger (back and seat), how about you?

I'm not fending for Argus, I think it's bullshit that they put out a product that fails so much, but saying that the product KILLED these victims is just wrong.


told ye', i'm NOT a rigger. but hey, what about if you were a dickhead and "forgot" to pull, and an argus did in your place, say the same time you realized what you did wrong - and SURPRISE, with your micron, now u're just a dead piece of meat still alive falling from the sky, awaiting it's inevitable and terminal end, in that position, what would YOUR reply be to this thread!? or to aviacom in general!?

:)
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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told ye', i'm NOT a rigger. but hey, what about if you were a dickhead and "forgot" to pull, and an argus did in your place, say the same time you realized what you did wrong - and SURPRISE, with your micron, now u're just a dead piece of meat still alive falling from the sky, awaiting it's inevitable and terminal end, in that position, what would YOUR reply be to this thread!? or to aviacom in general!?

:)



A) I've never forgotten to pull yet... As a matter of fact, I only have 5 jumps where I didn't pull... the airplane did that for me.

B) There have been several cases where people's muscle memory has caused them to pull their mains even when knocking on the door to the basement, it's more natural for people to reach for that.

C) Won't be an issue. My Argus is sitting on my coffee table where it's been since the SB came out and banned them.

D) Even if I was blowing thru AAD territory, I wouldn't be going in without my pilotchute out at the very least, and good luck finding my reserve handle, it'll be long gone too. (atleast the fuckers selling my gear will have to buy a new one and cut into their profits)
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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A) I've never forgotten to pull yet... As a matter of fact, I only have 5 jumps where I didn't pull... the airplane did that for me.



good for you; neither have i! :)
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B) There have been several cases where people's muscle memory has caused them to pull their mains even when knocking on the door to the basement, it's more natural for people to reach for that.



i dont doubt this..

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C) Won't be an issue. My Argus is sitting on my coffee table where it's been since the SB came out and banned them.



again, good for you. but i have doubts how many (responsible skydivers, such as you; AND you're a rigger too, so that may be the difference) are, or have been, doing the same. much props to you! :)
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D) Even if I was blowing thru AAD territory, I wouldn't be going in without my pilotchute out at the very least, and good luck finding my reserve handle, it'll be long gone too. (atleast the fuckers selling my gear will have to buy a new one and cut into their profits)



PC, yes.. how about you have a wild ride going with your main that brings you into AAD-territory; would you still be so formal that once you tried to go to your reserve.. well, fuck all, now u're going in with a no-out, since your main is long gone and your reserve, whatever you do, cannot be activated anymore!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Just made my first AFF jump Saturday at gold coast and jumped one of the student rigs. I will be keping an eye on all this. From what I have seen during my three visits to gold coast everyone there is very safety first minded. I did witness a very low cutaway before I left on Saturday... Never heard what happened though.


u werent flying, u were falling with style

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not trying to nit-pick here, but you sure seem to show some sort of affection for aviacom.

please, dont take this as a personal attack in any way, but defending a company that acts as poorly as aviacom does seems to imply you're involved..

in your honori i agree in being against "brand X" just because they are brandX, but hey, having shown such a disregard for possible safety-"features" like aviacom has in the past.. NO-FUCKING-WAY i'd ever stand behind their products, nor defend them in any way.. :|



I believe that even the clearly guilty should get a fair trial.

Does that say I like them? I do not believe it does.

I don't stand behind Aviacom's products - haven't in quite some time.

But I also don't believe in lynchings.

I do not defend their actions, but I still wish they got equal treatment. I do not believe they did. And I believe that the uneven treatment has made things worse for skydivers, not better.

I am not talking about conspiracies. I don't believe there was any conspiracy. I am talking about how a ball got rolling down a hill, picking up speed all the way, and crashed into the house at the bottom. Once PIA published their letter to the manufacturers, it is no surprise to me that so many would have banned the product. How could they not? Many felt that failing to ban left them with a significant liability exposure.

There is no doubt that Aviacom made a great deal of the problems for themselves. They have responded horribly at every possible point. I've been saying that all along. I have all along told Aviacom in many emails what I felt they should have done.

But the downward spiral was assisted by a significant bunch of people pushing that big rock down the hill. Once the banning started, Aviacom's business took a giant hit, and it is no surprise that any research into possible product improvement would grind to a halt. I don't know who that might have helped, but I am pretty sure that it hurt skydivers who might have benefited from a new cutter. Actually, I am surprised that the business has not folded. And that would have left a lot of people with absolutely no hope.

Did the banning save any lives? We will never know. We can never know. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't. But it surely guaranteed that any progress regarding getting a better cutter would be severely slowed or eliminated altogether.

I can't say that Aviacom would have done any better even without some of the stuff that happened. But I can't say they wouldn't have either.

Either way, I am pretty certain that things were made worse for Aviacom once that ball got started down the hull.

For the record, I probably feel as strongly about the Vigil as you do about the Argus. But I don't want them to go out of business. I want them to fix what I consider to be problems. Banning them would not get us any closer to that goal, and so I don't believe they should be banned. So far, they have said, "That's not a problem. That's a feature." I see very little difference between that and what Aviacom has said and done.

I don't favor one over the other. It isn't that I like one or the other. I dislike them both about equally.

I am sure that the two have been treated very differently, and I think that is wrong.

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not trying to nit-pick here, but you sure seem to show some sort of affection for aviacom.

please, dont take this as a personal attack in any way, but defending a company that acts as poorly as aviacom does seems to imply you're involved..

in your honori i agree in being against "brand X" just because they are brandX, but hey, having shown such a disregard for possible safety-"features" like aviacom has in the past.. NO-FUCKING-WAY i'd ever stand behind their products, nor defend them in any way.. :|



I believe that even the clearly guilty should get a fair trial.

Does that say I like them? I do not believe it does.

I don't stand behind Aviacom's products - haven't in quite some time.

But I also don't believe in lynchings.

I do not defend their actions, but I still wish they got equal treatment. I do not believe they did. And I believe that the uneven treatment has made things worse for skydivers, not better.

I am not talking about conspiracies. I don't believe there was any conspiracy. I am talking about how a ball got rolling down a hill, picking up speed all the way, and crashed into the house at the bottom. Once PIA published their letter to the manufacturers, it is no surprise to me that so many would have banned the product. How could they not? Many felt that failing to ban left them with a significant liability exposure.

There is no doubt that Aviacom made a great deal of the problems for themselves. They have responded horribly at every possible point. I've been saying that all along. I have all along told Aviacom in many emails what I felt they should have done.

But the downward spiral was assisted by a significant bunch of people pushing that big rock down the hill. Once the banning started, Aviacom's business took a giant hit, and it is no surprise that any research into possible product improvement would grind to a halt. I don't know who that might have helped, but I am pretty sure that it hurt skydivers who might have benefited from a new cutter. Actually, I am surprised that the business has not folded. And that would have left a lot of people with absolutely no hope.

Did the banning save any lives? We will never know. We can never know. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't. But it surely guaranteed that any progress regarding getting a better cutter would be severely slowed or eliminated altogether.

I can't say that Aviacom would have done any better even without some of the stuff that happened. But I can't say they wouldn't have either.

Either way, I am pretty certain that things were made worse for Aviacom once that ball got started down the hull.

For the record, I probably feel as strongly about the Vigil as you do about the Argus. But I don't want them to go out of business. I want them to fix what I consider to be problems. Banning them would not get us any closer to that goal, and so I don't believe they should be banned. So far, they have said, "That's not a problem. That's a feature." I see very little difference between that and what Aviacom has said and done.

I don't favor one over the other. It isn't that I like one or the other. I dislike them both about equally.

I am sure that the two have been treated very differently, and I think that is wrong.

___________________________________________________

Paul,
I think you hit the nail on the head. Very well put.

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Agreed. It IS an important point. But is it far from a spot-on answer.



Bill,
First off the letter from Aviacon is is not a reply.
It is a statement.

There is a dfference,believe it or not,

Also the phrase "spot on" means "factual" in this case. If you care to read it without malice, you might find that I am right in saying the statements in the letter are factual.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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"Dude", calm down.

I too do not approve of the way Argus dealt with this issue. In fact I'm deeply dissapointed. But other AADs have dissapointed me also how they dealt with issues.

Now, unless I've missed something, no-one has had an incident with a locked container, after a ripcord pull.

Not saying it can't happen, but it didn't happen and Aviacom finally woke up and now demands all the cutters to be replaced.

Although a cutter with a "soft" knive is something that should be addressed with way more action then Aviacom did, the "locked container" scenario has never been an issue for me for my personal use. (And not only because my cutter is on the bottom)

For the "locked container issue" to be dangerous for me, (assuming I would jump e.g. a Micron) I somehow didn't do anything, while being going through my harddeck, then waited some time more, then aprox. 4,5 seconds before impact, my AAD would fire, after which I decide to finally do something. I just don't see that happening... If I finally do something after doing nothing all that time, I would have been screwed anyway, because I wouldn't have enough time to get past line stretch. But then again, how unlikely it then I suddenly wake up below 800 feet and suddenly start doing something sensible?

This doesn't change the fact that the cutter should be replaced, because I like to have a higher certainty that the cutter works if needed. But I rather maken 1000 jumps without an AAD, or an AAD that *might* not open my reserve, then make a single jump with an AAD that activates my reserve when I don't want too.

Through Karel is the worst communicator I have ever seen in my life, and if Aviacom would go belly up, he certainly did his part, but I too, am confused about the emotions and lack of rational thinking surrounding Argus/Aviacom. But I've been confused since they started (Argus has in at least The Netherlands been blamed for world hunger even since before they had a product on the market). (Although it does involve alot of "ego's" in which Karel's behaviour isn't helpfull)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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