billvon 1,667
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JerryBaumchen 750
Hi Phree,
Re: Main!Canopy: Manufacture: Precision Model Manta 230
They might want to revisit that information.
JerryBaumchen
Re: Main!Canopy: Manufacture: Precision Model Manta 230
They might want to revisit that information.
JerryBaumchen
mark 85
QuoteQuote@ billvon: The Dolphin cutter location is on the pack tray, similar to Javelin and Wings.
@ Tkoontz: Argus cutters have never had a plastic insert. You must be thinking of Vigil Type-1 cutters, most of which have been replaced by now.
Mark
Here is the service bulletin I referred to: Madatory replacement of old cutters with plastic inserts
http://argus-aad.com/images/PDF/sbamm021206_2.pdf
I stand corrected.
Mark
jacketsdb23 35
Quoteif it's not, we might have faced yet ANOTHER fatality due to aviacom and their piss-poor management..
To me, we might have faced another fatality due to a student who chose not to pull handles. Can we please stop blaming AAD manufacturers? Keeping them honest is fair.
Skydiving is not for everyone. Even those new to it, i.e. students. Lets make damn sure that we as instructors are doing our part to say NO if thats what the student needs to hear. It sounds like the student saved his own life, as it should be.
Don't pull low unless you are.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.
TKoontz 0
I haven't done much investigation on Vigil yet, see the link I posted above for the Argus recall on the plastic inserts
I looked at the OPs photos, and the cutter was indeed a second generation (no plastic insert), so I guess my previous question was answered. I guess next would be to see if anyone knows what conditions it WAS under?
1) (as previously stated) does the cutter sit on top of the reserve on the student dolphin?
2) was there a lack of pressure on the closing loop/was the closing loop too long and therefore slack?
3) was the closing loop the proper material? (No idea if Argus uses a specially approved material for their cutters or not)
4) or was this just a shit cutter and we need to be concerned?
I looked at the OPs photos, and the cutter was indeed a second generation (no plastic insert), so I guess my previous question was answered. I guess next would be to see if anyone knows what conditions it WAS under?
1) (as previously stated) does the cutter sit on top of the reserve on the student dolphin?
2) was there a lack of pressure on the closing loop/was the closing loop too long and therefore slack?
3) was the closing loop the proper material? (No idea if Argus uses a specially approved material for their cutters or not)
4) or was this just a shit cutter and we need to be concerned?
Find your peace, though the world around you burns
BillyVance 33
QuoteQuote@ Tkoontz: Argus cutters have never had a plastic insert. You must be thinking of Vigil Type-1 cutters, most of which have been replaced by now.
Here is the service bulletin I referred to: Madatory replacement of old cutters with plastic inserts
http://argus-aad.com/images/PDF/sbamm021206_2.pdf
Clickified your nice find/memory.
Could a moderator modify the thread title to show Gold Coast (somewhere in the USofA), as almost any country with a seafront has a place called Gold Coast ?
Gold Coast Skydivers is in Lumberton, MS. Well inland from the coast. It used to be in Moss Point for years (just north of Pascagoula).
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban
Scrumpot 1
QuoteTo me, we might have faced another fatality due to a student who chose not to pull handles. Can we please stop blaming AAD manufacturers? Keeping them honest is fair.
Yes, and to be perfectly fair, as you request - I think what he was referring to, or trying to impart - taking all the inflammatory emotion out of it - is that, if this cutter is/were located in a rig whereby its firing resulted in a trapped (non-fully-cut) closing loop ... that even if the student DID then pull his reserve handle (let's say it was a TOTAL on his main) - then even if he did in that circumstance, the reserve would have been TRAPPED / LOCKED inside the container, which most certainly would have been fatal.
I think THAT much of the observation / post anyway, was a fair statement.
I agree though - sticking to (just) the FACTS, and calling for each of us to consider not having our valid posts otherwise just summarily dismissed out-of-hand, by taking any/all of the vitriol/"conspiracy theory" BS out of our postings ...regardless of which AAD Mfr. it may be ...is probably well advised.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone
mark 85
Quote1) (as previously stated) does the cutter sit on top of the reserve on the student dolphin?
2) was there a lack of pressure on the closing loop/was the closing loop too long and therefore slack?
3) was the closing loop the proper material? (No idea if Argus uses a specially approved material for their cutters or not)
1) The cutter is under the freebag, on the pack tray, on all Dolphins.
2) The closing loop appears to be the correct length, which implies that it was under some tension. In any case, the pilot chute spring was providing tension. This is different than the Portugal incident, which Aviacom says was caused by closing loop slack, caused in turn by the jumper leaning back on the rig and compressing the pilot chute while he was seated in a descending aircraft.
3) The Argus manual says Cypres material is acceptable for the closing loop, and this loop appears to be made from Cypres material.
Mark
pchapman 204
To clarify:
"The cutter was scheduled to be replaced in August 2011 as per PSB SB AMMO050910/3
revision 2."
This suggests that this was the previous style cutter, from up to Aug 2007, that is generally being replaced. It is that older cutter that was involved in the Poland incident, with lower cutter hardness than the newer cutters.
So as far as I know, for all the "failed to cut loop cleanly" incidents we've heard about, it is still true that ALL occurred on the older style cutters.
(I'm not one of the conspiracy theory guys, like rhys/doi/swoopguy/swoopgaz, but it makes you wonder why Argus still can't get manufacturers and national organizations to trust it at all.)
Note that AMMO050910 is now up to revision 4: After going back and forth on replacement requirements, Argus now (as of rev 4 in Apr'11) allows the older cutters to not be replaced, IF they are under the pilot chute.
So according to Argus that cutter would not actually have to be replaced by a new style one, because (I am told) the cutter on the Dolphin is at the backpad, under the pilot chute.
(And the bulletin cited in the original post wasn't technically AMMO050910/3 rev 2. Rather that version 3, the number after the slash, is the 2nd revision of the original AMMO050910. It all gets a little confusing.)
"The cutter was scheduled to be replaced in August 2011 as per PSB SB AMMO050910/3
revision 2."
This suggests that this was the previous style cutter, from up to Aug 2007, that is generally being replaced. It is that older cutter that was involved in the Poland incident, with lower cutter hardness than the newer cutters.
So as far as I know, for all the "failed to cut loop cleanly" incidents we've heard about, it is still true that ALL occurred on the older style cutters.
(I'm not one of the conspiracy theory guys, like rhys/doi/swoopguy/swoopgaz, but it makes you wonder why Argus still can't get manufacturers and national organizations to trust it at all.)
Note that AMMO050910 is now up to revision 4: After going back and forth on replacement requirements, Argus now (as of rev 4 in Apr'11) allows the older cutters to not be replaced, IF they are under the pilot chute.
So according to Argus that cutter would not actually have to be replaced by a new style one, because (I am told) the cutter on the Dolphin is at the backpad, under the pilot chute.
(And the bulletin cited in the original post wasn't technically AMMO050910/3 rev 2. Rather that version 3, the number after the slash, is the 2nd revision of the original AMMO050910. It all gets a little confusing.)
QuoteQuoteTo me, we might have faced another fatality due to a student who chose not to pull handles. Can we please stop blaming AAD manufacturers? Keeping them honest is fair.
Yes, and to be perfectly fair, as you request - I think what he was referring to, or trying to impart - taking all the inflammatory emotion out of it - is that, if this cutter is/were located in a rig whereby its firing resulted in a trapped (non-fully-cut) closing loop ... that even if the student DID then pull his reserve handle (let's say it was a TOTAL on his main) - then even if he did in that circumstance, the reserve would have been TRAPPED / LOCKED inside the container, which most certainly would have been fatal.
^^that!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
piisfish 121
now you all must realize the advantage of the no-cut Argus over other AAD's.
Had that student jumped with another AAD, he would likely had a main-reserve entanglement.
The no-cut can now be seen as a safety feature ![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM
Quotenow you all must realize the advantage of the no-cut Argus over other AAD's.
Had that student jumped with another AAD, he would likely had a main-reserve entanglement.
The no-cut can now be seen as a safety feature
the "ball of shit"-scenario is still more likely survivable than a no-out. just to keep the irony going...
maybe you should become the PR-manager for aviacom!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
piisfish 121
Argus, the AAD which doesn't tear you a new asshole when it firesQuotemaybe you should become the PR-manager for aviacom!
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM
I believe that was a Vigil, and they had that problem during the early days of the Vigil 1. If I recall correctly it was a big deal with some manufacturers. Vigil eventually fixed the problem and replaced the cutters.
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