What is most important in your 1st rig?

[shibu 1]

I was planning on getting a used rig & then I read about some malfunctions that were at least partially caused by improperly matched gear (canopy too big for container).

Sombody responded that they were going to get all new gear because their life is worth more than $5 grand. That sounded like it made alot of sense. Then I started adding up components & a container, main & reserve already had me at $6k without any options! I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver. He said we can find a used main canopy & reserve that wound work for me.

Is this salient advice? New container with all the options & everything else used? Should I invest in a new AAD as well?

[ChrisL 2]

It should be reliable, affordable, with performance appropriate to your experience level

__

My mighty steed

[NWFlyer 2]

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I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver.

It depends. If you're a real outlier size-wise, this may be excellent advice. If you're in the average height/weight/build range, it may be overkill since most people who are within the average ranges can find a used container that fits well enough to be both safe and comfortable. Of course, you'll have to be patient to find something, but it's probably out there.

I've done 800+ jumps in almost 7 years on a used container. It was very gently used (10 jumps) when I bought it, and I made one modification to make it fit me better - I had a longer chest strap put on as it was built for a guy who was about my height/weight, but since he lacked boobs, the chest strap was a bit too short for me.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[SkyPiggie 0]

Matching colors!

[theonlyski 3]

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I was planning on getting a used rig & then I read about some malfunctions that were at least partially caused by improperly matched gear (canopy too big for container).

Sombody responded that they were going to get all new gear because their life is worth more than $5 grand. That sounded like it made alot of sense. Then I started adding up components & a container, main & reserve already had me at $6k without any options! I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver. He said we can find a used main canopy & reserve that wound work for me.

Is this salient advice? New container with all the options & everything else used? Should I invest in a new AAD as well?

You don't need to buy everything new... and I would suggest against it... as you're probably going to want to downsize in a couple hundred jumps, and that new smaller canopy may not fit properly into the container you have.

My entire rig (minus AAD) is new, but it's also my second rig, and one that I plan on sticking with for a while, it cost a pretty penny, but by the time I bought it, I knew what I wanted.

The malfunctions caused by bad maintenance is pretty avoidable, have your rigger give it a good looking at, identify what the high wear points will potentially be, and keep an eye on it. It's very rare that a rig gets to the point of being dangerous if you keep an eye on it, and have a rigger worth something.

I've got a 1981 Wonderhog sitting in my rigging room, it has a 24' round reserve in it... I wouldn't have a doubt about jumping it, as it's in good condition (probably will end up jumping it just for shits and giggles). It's all about how it was taken care of.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 3]

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I had a longer chest strap put on as it was built for a guy who was about my height/weight, but since he lacked boobs, the chest strap was a bit too short for me.

Pictures?

I'm curious about the fit after the modification... you don't even have to put your jumpsuit on, just a tank top or bikinni.

Thanks!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[shibu 1]

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I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver.

It depends. If you're a real outlier size-wise, this may be excellent advice. If you're in the average height/weight/build range, it may be overkill since most people who are within the average ranges can find a used container that fits well enough to be both safe and comfortable. Of course, you'll have to be patient to find something, but it's probably out there.

I've done 800+ jumps in almost 7 years on a used container. It was very gently used (10 jumps) when I bought it, and I made one modification to make it fit me better - I had a longer chest strap put on as it was built for a guy who was about my height/weight, but since he lacked boobs, the chest strap was a bit too short for me.

Thanks to everyone for all the speedy replies.
I feel better about getting a used rig now.
I am 5'11" & 190lbs now... hopefully going down to my normal 180lbs by the time I get a rig.
I don't think that makes me an outlier.

[shibu 1]

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I was planning on getting a used rig & then I read about some malfunctions that were at least partially caused by improperly matched gear (canopy too big for container).

Sombody responded that they were going to get all new gear because their life is worth more than $5 grand. That sounded like it made alot of sense. Then I started adding up components & a container, main & reserve already had me at $6k without any options! I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver. He said we can find a used main canopy & reserve that wound work for me.

Is this salient advice? New container with all the options & everything else used? Should I invest in a new AAD as well?

You don't need to buy everything new... and I would suggest against it... as you're probably going to want to downsize in a couple hundred jumps, and that new smaller canopy may not fit properly into the container you have.

My entire rig (minus AAD) is new, but it's also my second rig, and one that I plan on sticking with for a while, it cost a pretty penny, but by the time I bought it, I knew what I wanted.

The malfunctions caused by bad maintenance is pretty avoidable, have your rigger give it a good looking at, identify what the high wear points will potentially be, and keep an eye on it. It's very rare that a rig gets to the point of being dangerous if you keep an eye on it, and have a rigger worth something.

I've got a 1981 Wonderhog sitting in my rigging room, it has a 24' round reserve in it... I wouldn't have a doubt about jumping it, as it's in good condition (probably will end up jumping it just for shits and giggles). It's all about how it was taken care of.

How much do you want for the '81 Wonderhog?
jk, but I do feel much better about getting a used rig now.

So how old is usually too old? 15yrs? 20yrs? If I purchased a rig with only 10 jumps on it I would consider it new.

[wildcard451 0]

I've been jumping 9 years. I have had only 1 brand new piece of gear, and I sold that canopy after 6 months. I finally think that I am ready for my last container and can finally buy custom.

First rig is good that one that fits, and appropriate main and reserve sizes for your experience level. If you take care of gear then the resale value is usually pretty decent.

[riggerrob 558]

More than 15 or 20 years is too old.

Consider that Zero porousity canopy fabric was introduced in 1988 (Parachutes de France) or 1989 (Performance Designs in the USA). Before that, no-one loaded their main canopies at more than one pound per square foot.
Zero-stretch (Spectra aka Microline) suspension lines were also introduced around 1990.
Collapsible pilot-chutes and collapsible sliders followed within a few years.

The last major "bugs" - with Type 17 mini-risers - were solved by 1993.

Reserve Static Lines peaked in popularity (1990) just before modern electronic Automatic Activation Devices (Cypres 1) were introduced in 1991.

By 1995, most container manufacturers shipped new containers "Cypres ready."

Hip rings were introduced in 1991, ... about the same time that Bottom of Container main pilot-chutes came into fashion.

Bottom line, the last major technological revolution was about twenty years ago, so there is little point in considering used parachutes more than 20 years old.

[davelepka 4]

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a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver.

Gear doesn't make you a better skydiver. Skydiving makes you a better skydiver, and if paying for new gear (any of it) effects your ability to make as many jumps as you have time for, or attend any boogies you want, then you've spent your money in the wrong place.

Consider this, get any student rig from the gear romm at your DZ, and hand it to the cheif instructor. The rig was not built for him, it probably has a high number of jumps on it, and the canopies are both twice the szie of what he usually jumps. Think he'll have any problem turning points or landing exactly where he wants?

The container is the worst thing to buy new. It's the most personalized peice, and thus the hardest to sell. You have to find a jumper just your size looking to jump the same size canopies as you, who happens to like the same colors and options as you, and happens to have money and be shopping for a rig at the same time you're selling. No problem, right?

Canopies, at least, only have the color option. Other than that, they're all the same. Reserves go one stpe further, with the color not even being a factor.

In the end, as others have mentioned, unless you're pretty far outside of the 'average' size, used is the way to go. Once you buy the first one, you can sell and buy different gear with little to no additional cash outlay. It let's you jump different rigs and different canopies and see what's what.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Knowing your exit weight is the first thing. That is how much you weight with all your gear on ( your weight plus about 25-30 pounds ). Find a conopy and reserve around that number or bigger for now ( or what your instructor suggests ). Then find a container that holds the two canopies comfortably, and fits your body. Stay away from round reserves, some DZ's will not let you use them. Stay away from containers that only take round reserves. Reserves also have a limit on how many times they can be packed and must be re-certified. The newer the reserve, the better ( 10 years or newer ).

Life is short ... jump often.

[shibu 1]

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More than 15 or 20 years is too old.

Consider that Zero porousity canopy fabric was introduced in 1988 (Parachutes de France) or 1989 (Performance Designs in the USA). Before that, no-one loaded their main canopies at more than one pound per square foot.
Zero-stretch (Spectra aka Microline) suspension lines were also introduced around 1990.
Collapsible pilot-chutes and collapsible sliders followed within a few years.

The last major "bugs" - with Type 17 mini-risers - were solved by 1993.

Reserve Static Lines peaked in popularity (1990) just before modern electronic Automatic Activation Devices (Cypres 1) were introduced in 1991.

By 1995, most container manufacturers shipped new containers "Cypres ready."

Hip rings were introduced in 1991, ... about the same time that Bottom of Container main pilot-chutes came into fashion.

Bottom line, the last major technological revolution was about twenty years ago, so there is little point in considering used parachutes more than 20 years old.

Thanks for that great timeline. I get the picture. All of the details are interesting. I had no idea how much innovation occured so recently.

[riggerrob 558]

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More than 15 or 20 years is too old.

Consider that Zero porousity canopy fabric was introduced in 1988 (Parachutes de France) or 1989 (Performance Designs in the USA). Before that, no-one loaded their main canopies at more than one pound per square foot.
Zero-stretch (Spectra aka Microline) suspension lines were also introduced around 1990.
Collapsible pilot-chutes and collapsible sliders followed within a few years.

The last major "bugs" - with Type 17 mini-risers - were solved by 1993.

Reserve Static Lines peaked in popularity (1990) just before modern electronic Automatic Activation Devices (Cypres 1) were introduced in 1991.

By 1995, most container manufacturers shipped new containers "Cypres ready."

Hip rings were introduced in 1991, ... about the same time that Bottom of Container main pilot-chutes came into fashion.

Bottom line, the last major technological revolution was about twenty years ago, so there is little point in considering used parachutes more than 20 years old.

Thanks for that great time-line. I get the picture. All of the details are interesting. I had no idea how much innovation occurred so recently.

.......................................................................................

One more point: it is difficult to ensure that all the service bulletins have been done to a twenty year old rig. Older Service Bulletins are not available in electronic format, so will be difficult for a young rigger to research. Then you have to depend upon the memory of a grumpy, old grey-bearded Master Rigger.

Blue skies,

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger

[riggerrob 558]

"

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... Stay away from round reserves, some DZ's will not let you use them. Stay away from containers that only take round reserves. ...

"

........................................................................................

Good point!
The Canadian and American military stopped selling air-worthy round reserves around 1980. Then the acid mesh scandal grounded thousands of round reserves in the late 1980s.
By 1990, both the Canadian Sports Parachuting Association and the United States Parachute Association were recommending only, large, docile ram-air main canopies for students.
Ergo, you will have a hard time finding a civilian skydiving instructor who has jumped a round parachute. If an instructor has never jumped a round main parachute a few dozen times, he should never try to teach people how to land round parachutes.

Background ... I did my first jump on a military-surplus, round parachute back in 1977. I did about 70 jumps on round canopies, but my last jump on a round parachute in 1986. Since then I have made more than 4,000 jumps on ram-air parachutes.
Even though I have re-certified a few dozen round reserves as "acid free", back during the 1990s ... I wish all the round reserves from the acid mesh era would quietly retire.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger (back, seat and chest)
Canadian Army Jump Wings
(Bronze) West German Army paratroopoer wings

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi rob,

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you will have a hard time finding a civilian skydiving instructor who has jumped a round parachute.

This one has but after the landing from this, he said 'Never again.'

JerryBaumchen

[Remster 24]

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The container is the worst thing to buy new.

mmm. I'd say the opposite. A X canopy is a X canopy is a X canopy. Colors are just colors.

The container on the other hand is a harness made to spec, with trays sized for specific canopies or combinations of canopies.

To me, that makes buying a container used that's right much more difficult.

This being said, if you can find one: go for it!

Remster

[jrmrangers 0]

I didnt think i was that far out of the norm when i considered my weight and height but it turned out to be not so simple. I happen to have a looong torso and a big ass so everytime i found a container it didnt fit right.(I tried a bunch of them) I wound up having to get a new container but i was able to find used canopies pretty easilly.

Wait , I pull what first?

[davelepka 4]

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The container on the other hand is a harness made to spec, with trays sized for specific canopies or combinations of canopies.

This is a bit of a misconception that some people seem to have about new rigs. The vast majority of new rigs are just factory selected combinations of existing sizes.

For example, a Javelin J-1 is a container size, and all J-1s are the same size. Each size fits a range of canopies, and you pick the size that meets your needs, but if a new J-1 will hold your canopies, so will a used J-1.

Harnesses are largely the same. Sticking with the Javelin talk, a C-17 harness is a C sized yoke with a 17 inch main lift web. So if your shoulders are within a certain range of widths, you get a C yoke. If your torso is within a certain range of lengths, you get a 17 MLW. One C-17 is almost the same as another C-17.

Note I said 'almost' because they can tailor the laterals to your size, and if you happen to be more round than falt, you might get a longer lateral. They can also tailor the legstraps to your thighs, and if you're a beanploe, you get the shorty legstraps, and the fattys get more strap for their container-buying dollar.

However, those differences are generally slight, and as mentioned upthread, if the buyer is of an 'average size' one C-17 is the same as another C-17.

At least half of the 'custom' in a custom built rig is the colors, fabrics, and the options. 90% of the container and harness sizes are standard, 'off the rack' sizes determined by your needs falling into one measurement range or another.

[Remster 24]

Some are, some are a lot more custom (Wings for example).

This being said, it's still enough reasons that, IMO, containers are a good new option as the right harness size and tray sizes combination is harder to find.

I guess we disagree.



Shall we take this to Speaker's Corner: YOU SUCK!

Remster

[hokierower 0]

I'm about the same size as you (5'11, 180#) and managed to find all of my components within 3 weeks of beginning my search for gear. I knew what size & type of main I wanted (colors didn't matter) and I had a used cypres, so the only thing which was needed was a container and a reserve. These I picked up as a combo unit and then had everything shipped to a local rigger for inspection and assembly. Not one single color matches .

The only thing that doesn't quite fit is the lower part of the harness because the hip rings sit about 2" high but as soon as I figured out how to move the balls out of the way that ceased to be a problem.

I bought my entire setup for $3k. I'll fly the canopy for another 150 jumps minimum, the Cypres has 2 more repacks on it, and the container and reserve are in great condition, especially the container assuming it has over 2000 jumps in 5 years.

Go used and save your pennies for new.

[jrmrangers 0]

if the rings are that high , isnt the BOC also high? I found a couple of rigs that the BOC was high on my body and wasnt at all comfortable.

Wait , I pull what first?

[hokierower 0]

No, the BOC is in a pretty good location and the rig sits on my body pretty well.

[mjosparky 3]

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I am sure I can get a better price but a rigger strongly suggested that I at least get a new container so that it would fit me well & make me a better skydiver.

That rigger is full of shit. The only piece of gear that makes a difference in your learning curve is a properly sized jump suit. Until pull time the rig just sits there.

Sparky

PS: But if I start jumping again I am going to buy all brand new color matched gear.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

Reserve canopy sizing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239