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dbogardus

Buying a first rig...what to ask a seller.

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Hi:

So, I’m a big fat noob. Let’s get that out of the way first. I just finished my AFF classes last weekend and while I felt extremely comfortable on every level and executed (in my opinion) very well, I’m very much ignorant of a lot of considerations when it comes to gear and buying. I’d also like to add to this disclaimer that I completely understand that buying gear this early is not recommended, that I should be talking with the rigger at my DZ, flying different canopies they have for rent, and more than likely the following scenario is probably not the best way forward for me at this point. Having said that…

A friend of a friend has an old rig which I picked up last night to take a look at. It looks relatively old but in surprisingly good shape overall. I think he mentioned it had been sitting around unused for 5 year minimum, maybe 7. I haven’t spoken directly with the seller yet and I’m planning on asking some questions before I have my rigger look at it this weekend. The following is a list of things I’ve decided to ask.

- How old is the equipment?
- When was the last time it was used?
- How many people have owned it?
- Have any repairs been made to it?
- Have many jumps are logged on the main chute?
- How many reserve pulls? / main cutaways?
- Has the rig been stored anywhere which would potentially harm it?

I would very much like to be prepared for questions my rigger would want to know as he examines it. Are there any other questions I should ask/info I should get from the seller before I speak with my rigger which I'm unaware of? I don’t want to have to go back and forth between parties with a load of questions. I'm hoping for this to be a great learning experiance if nothing else.

Thanks very much for sharing your experience. I couldn’t be more excited about joining the sport.

Dave

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Did ya check the SIZE of the canopies?

That is numero uno, if they're not within reasonable limits, then run away... FAST.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Your rigger should be able to figure out everything but how many people owned it and how many times the main has been cut away neither which matter.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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- How old is the equipment?
- When was the last time it was used?
- How many people have owned it?
- Have any repairs been made to it?
- Have many jumps are logged on the main chute?
- How many reserve pulls? / main cutaways?
- Has the rig been stored anywhere which would potentially harm it?



The first two questions are irrevelant. The rest of the questions can be accurately answered by a rigger after an inpsection, which is a must before buying any used piece of equipment.

Between harness size, main canopy size, reserve canopy size, and various equipment updates and recalls, the chances of your friend just happening to have a used rig that will work for you is slim. Certainly hand it off to your rigger for an inspection, but don't expect much.

When you say you finished your AFF classes, do you mean the ground school, and you only have 2 jumps? Or do you mean you finished all the jumps and just haven't updated your profile since you had 2 jumps? I ask because any jumps made as a student with an instructor will most likely have to made on the DZ student rigs. Even if you are done with your AFF jumps, the DZ may require you use their rigs until you have an A license, so check into that as well.

At a minnimum, you will need an AAD in any rig you jump until you have a licesne, so be sure the rigger knows that you need a rig that will take an AAD. Some rigs are AAD ready, and others need to be modified to take an AAD, so if that's the case, be sure to get a quote on how much that will run. Actually, be sure to get a quote for any repair or updating work needed to get any used gear airworhty, and factor that cost into your budgeting.

That said, skydiving is a terrible place to look for bargains on gear. You can pruchase a solid, modern rig that will offer you all the performance you need for about $3000 without an AAD, closer to $4000 with an AAD. If you buy at the right price, you can generally get 90% of your money back after a year and 100 jumps. Buying poplur modern components means that when you want to sell, you'll be able to move the stuff in short order. You can look at a used beginner rig as more of an investment than a purchase. It's an investment you're going to loose a couple hundred bucks on, but the fact remains that you can cash out and sell the gear at anytime.

Even if you can find an older rig for half of that, you may have trouble selling it all by the time you're ready. So instead of jumping newer gear for $200/$300, you're jumping older stuff and it costs you $1000 by the time you find a buyer (if at all).

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Yeah, the first question is:

WHAT are you buying, and in what sizes.
Reserve: what brand, type and size (you want a wingload of max 1.0)
Main: what brand, type and size, how are the lines (when is it going to need a reline), and again is it suitable for you (student or intermediate model, appropriate size to your bodyweight, experience and wishes) RIGHT NOW, not in another -insert number here- jumps.
AAD: IS there one? If so, (when) does it need maintenance/batteries?
Rig: does it fit you? Does it have an RSL?

I personally don't care much how old something is (other than, price wise), how many rides are on a reserve, when the last time was when it was used, and least of all how many people have owned it. What IS important IMO is whether it's airworthy, is it a good rig for you AT THIS TIME, and if the price is right.

Without knowing your exit weight, your previous experience, and WHAT IT IS YOURE LOOKING TO BUY, no one here can give you any answer on it, other than, from previous experience withs newbies buying gear on their own: it's probably NOT a good rig for you. Oh, and do not take the word of your friend of a friend about whether the rig is OK for you or not. Aks your own instructors. First.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Did ya check the SIZE of the canopies?

That is numero uno, if they're not within reasonable limits, then run away... FAST.



What would be considered a safe size for a student? This thing is considerably less heavy than the Navigator 240 I've done my student jumping on. I'm still waiting to hear back on the exact model though. I'll be asking to jump on a 210 max this weekend which I estimate to be a wingload of 1.

I know I should ask my rigger and instructor I've been jumping with. But since you mentioned it...


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When you say you finished your AFF classes, do you mean the ground school, and you only have 2 jumps? Or do you mean you finished all the jumps and just haven't updated your profile since you had 2 jumps?



I've finished the 7 AFF levels. Cakewalk.


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At a minnimum, you will need an AAD in any rig you jump until you have a licesne, so be sure the rigger knows that you need a rig that will take an AAD. Some rigs are AAD ready, and others need to be modified to take an AAD, so if that's the case, be sure to get a quote on how much that will run. Actually, be sure to get a quote for any repair or updating work needed to get any used gear airworhty, and factor that cost into your budgeting.



It has an AAD which I'm sure needs to be serviced and I would need to add an RSL which has been removed. That is a requirement for me.


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That said, skydiving is a terrible place to look for bargains on gear. You can pruchase a solid, modern rig that will offer you all the performance you need for about $3000 without an AAD, closer to $4000 with an AAD. If you buy at the right price, you can generally get 90% of your money back after a year and 100 jumps. Buying poplur modern components means that when you want to sell, you'll be able to move the stuff in short order. You can look at a used beginner rig as more of an investment than a purchase. It's an investment you're going to loose a couple hundred bucks on, but the fact remains that you can cash out and sell the gear at anytime.

Even if you can find an older rig for half of that, you may have trouble selling it all by the time you're ready. So instead of jumping newer gear for $200/$300, you're jumping older stuff and it costs you $1000 by the time you find a buyer (if at all).



Great point which I hadn't considered.

Thanks everyone for your replies so far.

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I'll be asking to jump on a 210 max this weekend which I estimate to be a wingload of 1.



210 what? and you estimated it, how much do you weigh?

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I know I should ask my rigger and instructor I've been jumping with.



then why are you on here? seriously you speak as if you already have everything figured out.

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I've finished the 7 AFF levels. Cakewalk.

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I'll be asking to jump on a 210 max this weekend which I estimate to be a wingload of 1.



210 what? and you estimated it, how much do you weigh?

Quote

I know I should ask my rigger and instructor I've been jumping with.



then why are you on here? seriously you speak as if you already have everything figured out.

Quote

I've finished the 7 AFF levels. Cakewalk.



Since I was replying to someone's comment with respect to the SIZE of the canopy, I assumed the model was not their concern. Being that SIZE was referenced, I assumed wingloading was the concern. Yes, that's correct, I estimated the wing-loading, which actually wasn't an estimate at all. It's basic division.

I'm here because I don't speak with my rigger much and would like to be prepared when I have the opportunity. Using multiple resources allows me to gain a steeper learning curve.

I'm not sure why you think I have everything all figured out as I've clearly said I don't and am asking for advice with respect. Your post is in really poor taste. There is no need for you to reply again unless an interweb no0b has hurt your feelings and you need to give your ego another boost.

And yes, I killed the seven AFF levels like it was my job. <my overblown ego.

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- How old is the equipment?
- When was the last time it was used?
- How many people have owned it?
- Have any repairs been made to it?
- Have many jumps are logged on the main chute?
- How many reserve pulls? / main cutaways?
- Has the rig been stored anywhere which would potentially harm it?



The first two questions are irrevelant. The rest of the questions can be accurately answered by a rigger after an inpsection, which is a must before buying any used piece of equipment.

Between harness size, main canopy size, reserve canopy size, and various equipment updates and recalls, the chances of your friend just happening to have a used rig that will work for you is slim. Certainly hand it off to your rigger for an inspection, but don't expect much.

When you say you finished your AFF classes, do you mean the ground school, and you only have 2 jumps? Or do you mean you finished all the jumps and just haven't updated your profile since you had 2 jumps? I ask because any jumps made as a student with an instructor will most likely have to made on the DZ student rigs. Even if you are done with your AFF jumps, the DZ may require you use their rigs until you have an A license, so check into that as well.

At a minnimum, you will need an AAD in any rig you jump until you have a licesne, so be sure the rigger knows that you need a rig that will take an AAD. Some rigs are AAD ready, and others need to be modified to take an AAD, so if that's the case, be sure to get a quote on how much that will run. Actually, be sure to get a quote for any repair or updating work needed to get any used gear airworhty, and factor that cost into your budgeting.

That said, skydiving is a terrible place to look for bargains on gear. You can pruchase a solid, modern rig that will offer you all the performance you need for about $3000 without an AAD, closer to $4000 with an AAD. If you buy at the right price, you can generally get 90% of your money back after a year and 100 jumps. Buying poplur modern components means that when you want to sell, you'll be able to move the stuff in short order. You can look at a used beginner rig as more of an investment than a purchase. It's an investment you're going to loose a couple hundred bucks on, but the fact remains that you can cash out and sell the gear at anytime.

Even if you can find an older rig for half of that, you may have trouble selling it all by the time you're ready. So instead of jumping newer gear for $200/$300, you're jumping older stuff and it costs you $1000 by the time you find a buyer (if at all).



Great answer. I am also looking for my first rig. Your answer was very clear except what do you mean by a "modern rig"? One that is less than 10 years old? Less than 5?

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what do you mean by a "modern rig"? One that is less than 10 years old? Less than 5?



I think most would consider that a Vector II and other such rigs by other mfgs that use velcro to keep main/reserve/riser cover flaps closed as older/not modern. I'm not sure how old you have to go to run into such rigs, but I think at least 10 years, but it depends on the mfg. That doesn't mean that the such rigs are unsafe, just that they lack some of the modern refinements that make premature deployments less likely while freeflying. The older rigs are also more likely to need more extensive/expensive repairs to make them airworthy, although any rig might need repairs, and some older rigs are in pristine condition - therefore the need to get it checked by someone (an experienced rigger you trust) that knows what to look for.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Great answer. I am also looking for my first rig. Your answer was very clear except what do you mean by a "modern rig"? One that is less than 10 years old? Less than 5?



Companies have been making rigs which rely on tuck-tabs to keep things closed (instead of velcro), are designed for non-belly to earth positions, and are configured for AAD installation for over 15 years.

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