The TSO costs

[Deyan 31]

Let say, you have a new product and you want to apply for TSO. How deep your pocket must be??? And what is the most expensive part of the process, the drop testing or all the paperwork BS's

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Deyan,

I can only offer my thoughts.

At the '93 PIA Symposium there was a panel of mfr's and the consenus ( then ) was at least $50K.

Dan Poynter sells a document called 'Guide for Manufacturers' that was put out the FAA ( I gave him his copy ).

Also, Manley Butler wrote a book on 'Getting a TSO' or a name similar to that.

As to the drop tests costs vs the paperwork costs; how good are your writing skills?

I will do consulting, but for a fee.

JerryBaumchen

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

I will do consulting, but for a fee.

And I will coordinate and conduct the testing, but for a fee.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

And I'll volunteer to sit and watch two masters at work...for free.

For any Technical Writing skills needed, I can do that...for a fee.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

H Deyan,

Now that we have team in place & ready to go to work, tell us about the women in Bulgaria?

JerryBaumchen

[crotalus01 0]

Deep deep pockets. The ATR aircraft have an aluminum stepladder with little tabs on it to hook into the doorframe for the pilots to enter the plane. The TSO turned it from a $14.95 ladder to a $1,300 ladder (found that out when a member of my team accidentally hit the ladder while we were loading the plane and bent it).

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[riggerrob 558]

Back when (1994 - 1997) I was working for Sandy Reid (Rigging Innovations aka: "The Talon Factory") one of my first jobs was loading test dummies into a B-25 Mitchel bomber.
Sandy estimated that each test drop cost US$800, in 1994 dollars. We did sixty-some-odd test drops on the Aviator pilot emergency parachute system. So that would probably add up to $600,000 in today's dollars.

Aside from test-packing most of the prototypes, loading dummies into the B-25, I also did five live drops and wrote the manual.

After receiving the TSO (C23D), Sandy insisted on more live jumps - to bring the total number of test drops up to 100 - so that he could claim a 99 percent reliability rate.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Sandy estimated that each test drop cost US$800, in 1994 dollars. We did sixty-some-odd test drops on the Aviator pilot emergency parachute system. So that would probably add up to $600,000 in today's dollars.

Sure those are the right figures? There is no way $42000 in 1994 would equate to $600000 in 2011 dollars. Even at 100 drops at $800 per, equaling $80000, that wouldn't give anywhere close to that final figure.

[popsjumper 2]

So typical these days.

"You are wrong!"...with nothing to follow it up.
*sigh*

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[michalm21 0]

http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=80000&year1=1994&year2=2011

$ 80,000
in 1994
Has the same buying power as: $121,977.87
in 2011

[davelepka 4]

Quote

$ 80,000
in 1994
Has the same buying power as: $121,977.87
in 2011

Indeed, but the price of fueling, insuring and operating an aircraft fast enough to do the drops has gone up beyond the rate of inflation. Also, that figure is for the AC time only, and does not include the salaries of all involved in the drops. 100 drops has to take at least 25 working days to achieve, and a handful of employees (beyond the pilots) to accomplish.

Does is add up to $600,00, or whatever was claimed in the first post? I don't know, but at that sime time I'm sure getting a TSO isn't cheap.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Indeed, but the price of fueling, insuring and operating an aircraft fast enough to do the drops has gone up beyond the rate of inflation. Also, that figure is for the AC time only, and does not include the salaries of all involved in the drops. 100 drops has to take at least 25 working days to achieve, and a handful of employees (beyond the pilots) to accomplish.

Does is add up to $600,00, or whatever was claimed in the first post? I don't know, but at that sime time I'm sure getting a TSO isn't cheap.

I agree that getting a TSO is not cheap or there would probably be a lot more products out there if it was. But I am not sure the original figure is for AC time only. It doesn't stipulate that only AC time and if someone is calculating the overall costs of each drop, they wouldn't leave out factors such as employee wages, time, fuel, etc. Otherwise it wouldn't be a cost for each test drop.

A small note on the time factor, I worked for a company where we did more than 4 test drops in a day. Not saying that 25 is an inaccurate assumption but it doesn't necessarily require at least 25 days to perform.

[mjosparky 3]

It can take 2 day to prep for one day of drops. On the day of the drop you have salaries, a/c time, and facilities charge and in some cases transportation costs to the site. You then have the cost of test vehicles/dummies and expendables.
In the late 90’s and early 00’s it was not unusual for us to charge $2000 a day for testing and depending on travel and what the test item was it could go to $5,000 a day. Any aviation endever is never cheap.

This series of tests cost big time.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/00000037.jpg

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/00000041.jpg

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[aliencico 0]

Dear Sir,

Please, ask directly to the Centre D´Essais en Vol, located in Toulouse-Francazal French Air Base. They will provide you a personalized quote for your TSO request.

Address:

Centre D´Essai en Vol, Base d´essais de Toulouse
18 Rue Roquemaurel,
31300
Toulouse
Haut Garonne
France
Phone: +33 05.61.31.38.38
Fax: +33 05.61.31.38.31

If You prefer, by language, Can contact with the Russian Federation Embassy. There they will inform, some parachute Test Centers located in Russia. Monino has one, Zhukovsky has other, and there is another located in Ivanovo, but there are a few more.

The choice is yours, based on your budget, Spoken language, and certification requested.

Hoping to have aided

Juan Fraile-Nuez
Military Parachute Rigger (ret.)
Spain, Europe

[Deyan 31]

Thank you ALL for the provided info. Cheers It seems that I have to buy a lottery ticket more often

@ Jerry and the rest of the testing crew.....The women are hot and the beer is ALWAYS cold....are you guys coming?

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Deyan,

Quote

The women are hot and the beer is ALWAYS cold....are you guys coming?

You should get a job as a travel agent.

And as for: '. . . are you guys coming?'

Nope, just breathing hard.

JerryBaumchen

[tdog 0]

Quote

After receiving the TSO (C23D), Sandy insisted on more live jumps - to bring the total number of test drops up to 100 - so that he could claim a 99 percent reliability rate.

So it failed once? We all know parachutes are not perfect, but I bet most skydivers expect a better than 99% success rate.

[mjosparky 3]

This should explain it.

Sparky

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4.3 Qualification Tests:

The following minimum performance standards shall be met. There shall be no failure to meet any of the requirements during the qualification tests of this section. In case of a failure, the cause must be found, corrected, and all affected tests repeated. The packing method must be specified and the same packing method must be used for all tests.

4.3.4 Strength Test:

No material(s) or device(s) that attenuates shock loads and is not an integral part of the
parachute assembly or component being certificated may be used. Tests may be conducted for either a complete parachute assembly or separate components. There shall be no evidence of material, stitch, or functional failure that will affect airworthiness. The same canopy, harness, component, and/or riser(s) shall be used for all 4.3.4 tests. Opening forces shall be measured on all 4.3.4 tests. The parachute must be functionally open within the number of seconds calculated for 4.3.6 tests. Parachute assemblies shall be tested in accordance with the following schedule:

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My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

All one hundred of the Aviator test items opened and landed softly.

99 percent was quoted to keep the lawyers guessing.

Considering the nature of pilot emergency parachutes, there was not way Sandy wanted to promise 100 percent to users who had already made a series of mistakes on their way to the scene of the crash.