New technique for a pilotchute in tow???

[Zing 2]

Well, you just have to ask yourself ... do ya feel lucky?

Zing Lurks

[nigel99 143]

This reminds me of a situation with a military military jumper a few years ago who had some sort of mal, with 2 out. So he pulled what he thought was the main into a bundle in front of him and then chopped it (LR288). Anyway he had actually pulled in the reserve, but he just let go and had an unneventful reserve ride.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[billvon 2,393]

>what about for sports gear though?

There was a two-out study on military squares a while back and they achieved similar results. (Military gear is pretty similar to civilian gear; biggest differences are ripcord main, handle placement and large 7-cells.)

[melushell 0]

Lol interesting points of view

the guy jumped at my DZ
he had a camera suit, PC went through the attachment point of the wing therefore PCIT

the problem was that also the main bag got out so he tried to catch it ....he succeeded very well and after having PC and bag in his arm he deployed the reserve

he said he pulled higher than normal therefore the time he spends solving it

thumbs up for him

[Rory81 0]

Hahaha, that's the most famous emergency here at Lillo! it's kinda old tho... it happened more than 2 years ago.

everything happened as Mel explained, mess controlled with one hand, cut away + reserve with the other.

Ché! eres el mejor

[rmcvey 0]

un....clip....camera...wing.....?

[PROGRESSIVE 0]

I'd poop in my pants and start pulling handles, followed by a quick prayer.

Pete

[hukturn 0]

How about...a PCIT is not going to slow your fall rate to a surivial range. It is a fast malfunction. If you normally pull at 2.5-3.5K, time is limited. Do most people really believe you have time for barrell rolls, time to sit up, et cetera? What happened to; pull...pull at the proper altitude...pull stable? Personal choices, I guess. The pilot must evaluate what is happening and make the best decision for themselves.

[NWPoul 1]

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... It is a fast malfunction. If you normally pull at 2.5-3.5K, time is limited. Do most people really believe you have time for barrell rolls, time to sit up, et cetera? What happened to; pull...pull at the proper altitude...pull stable? Personal choices, I guess. The pilot must evaluate what is happening and make the best decision for themselves.

When I pull at 3.0K and had PCIT - I had plenty of time to recognize and try to fix it before my hard deck 3.0K - 1.8K = 8 sec!

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[sundevil777 93]

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I had a PCIT at around 100 jumps jumping a friends rig. I didn't try to clear it. I treated it like a HS mal and went directly to my reserve with no cutaway. BANG, canopy opens, but when I look up it is the main. I reached for my toggles trying to determine what just happened and there were some loose lines wrapped around my risers. As I was getting these clear of my toggles something hit me in the side with enough force for me to look down. It was the reserve still in the freebag. In the middle of thin king OH SHIT! I stuffed it down the front of my shirt. That handled I released my toggles and landed in the peas. Four or five folks came running out asking if I was OK. I thought I stood up the landing why wouldn't I be OK? They said all they saw was a reserve PC in tow and that was the reason they came running out... I didn't even think about that. Must have looked pretty scary from the ground.

So my friend lands and everyone tells him he almost killed me and my friend said "Everything looked fine from above." It was at this point I started to realize how much trouble I had actually gotten myself out of. A friend of mine actually died from the same mal a few months later.

Today I would definitely have cutaway the main prior to deploying the reserve.

How does your incident lead you to conclude you would have been better off to have cutaway first? A main can also entangle with the reserve after being cutaway - while departing the risers are whipping around and can snag the reserve.

Are you saying your reserve PC didn't launch well/was in-tow?

What was the full story on your friend's malfunction?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tfelber 0]

It was strictly luck that had me land uneventfully. In reality the reserve should easily beat the main out. So the only thing that could have happened is as I was pulling the reserve handle the main was lifting from the tray. It's just a matter of timing that the main inflated enough before the reserve that the reserve didn't clear the freebag and that I didn't have enough forward speed under the main to clear the freebag since I now had a reserve PCIT. Had either of these things happened the reserve would have inflated with several wraps around the main and collapsed both canopies. If I had cutaway the main before going to the reserve, even if the main would have inflated it would be out of play and the reserve would have opened as intended.

As for the other accident, you asked me this same question in that thread, Nov 2003 "Fatality Coolidge Arizona".

[sundevil777 93]

I think your conclusions are incorrect and based on faulty assumptions.

If this was not true, then there would be no doubt whether to cutaway first or not was better.

I apologize for repeating myself from 4 years ago. I think this subject is important, interesting, and worthy of debate. I think that debate should not be based upon an incorrect assumption that cutting away first removes the possibility of an entanglement, or that not cutting away first results in a likely entanglement. The testing that has been done does not support those conclusions.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tfelber 0]

I only have my direct observations and formed opinion to go by but:

If Marc would have cutaway before pulling his reserve he would probably be alive.

If I had cutaway before pulling my reserve I would have probably had a fully inflated reserve over my head rather than the main.

If you cutaway the main in a PCIT situation and then go to the reserve there is a higher probability that if the main falls out of the container it will not open. If it opens it will not be connected to the harness and will for the most part be out of play.

If the main is not cutaway and the reserve opens the probability of needing to deal with a two-out situation is inevitable.

The probability of a two-out entanglement is greater than that of an entanglement resulting from a PCIT cutaway.

I don't have any empirical data to support my theories but I would be more than willing to debate any of them.

[hukturn 0]

Yup...you are right. For some reason, I was assuming that the PCIT was occurring @ pull altitude. Totally sorry. But, if the PCIT occurred @ 2.5-3.5K, time would be very limited. Thus, high speed emergency procedures would be applicable, IMO.

[faulknerwn 36]

Remember as well - that a _lot_ of people over the years have gone in with just the cutaway handle pulled - my personal preference is I'd rather have 2 out than 0 out - and time flies during a pc-in-tow.

And there has been at least 1 case of flapping risers from a cutaway main (which didn't leave the container) interfere with the reserve deployment.

[AFFI 0]

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I'd rather have 2 out than 0 out

Hell Ya

A few questions for the group:

What is the defenition of a total malfunction?

With a PCIT, is the container open?

What are the benifits of cutting away first, will it release anything?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[airtwardo 6]

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I'd rather have 2 out than 0 out

Hell Ya

A few questions for the group:

What is the definition of a total malfunction?

~Nothing out

With a PCIT, is the container open?

~Usually not, however it can be if the bridle fouls after pulling the pin.

What are the benefits of cutting away first, will it release anything?

~Releases the main risers.
If the P-C-I-T is being caused by a too tight closing loop, when the reserve is deployed the main pack tray usually loosens up some, and may allow the pin to be pulled deploying the main at the same time and place the reserve is deploying.
Cutting away 'could' lower the chance of an entanglement.

If the pin isn't pulled on reserve deployment, it could be during the reserve descent, if the risers are still attached you could have a two out.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sundevil777 93]

I think it is not at all clear that you are better off to cutaway first. That conclusion ignores testing that was done, and ignores that many near simultaneous deployments happen with OK results. It is not nearly so common that the main is cutaway first, so we don't have nearly as much actual experience to base an assertion that cutting away first is better.

Of course I realize both methods have ended badly. I just cannot agree that cutting away first is clearly the best strategy.

If the main deploys simultaneously and is already cut away, everything still has to be pulled up and pass by as the reserve is also deploying and can interfere with the deploying reserve. If it is cutaway first, then the loose risers will not just go straight up, they will be flapping around as they go up, with the possibility of snagging the main (it has happened), especially if you have an RSL shackle that will be attached to a riser. If the main container only opens up after the reserve opening shock, then it will fall harmlessly down instead of up, and of course can be chopped with no concern at that time.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tfelber 0]

As may be, but I guarantee if I ever have a PCIT again I will cutaway first... And pretty much everyone; instructors, S&TA's, fun jumpers, and TI, I have talked to about this said they would probably cutaway first also.

Had my reserve opened as it should have we wouldn't be having this conversation because like Marc I would probably be dead.

[airtwardo 6]

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I think it is not at all clear that you are better off to cutaway first. That conclusion ignores testing that was done, and ignores that many near simultaneous deployments happen with OK results. It is not nearly so common that the main is cutaway first, so we don't have nearly as much actual experience to base an assertion that cutting away first is better.

Of course I realize both methods have ended badly. I just cannot agree that cutting away first is clearly the best strategy.

If the main deploys simultaneously and is already cut away, everything still has to be pulled up and pass by as the reserve is also deploying and can interfere with the deploying reserve. If it is cutaway first, then the loose risers will not just go straight up, they will be flapping around as they go up, with the possibility of snagging the main (it has happened), especially if you have an RSL shackle that will be attached to a riser. If the main container only opens up after the reserve opening shock, then it will fall harmlessly down instead of up, and of course can be chopped with no concern at that time.

Agree...add to that if the reserve has a problem, you're out of parachutes to try to get 'open' if you cut the main away.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sundevil777 93]

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Had my reserve opened as it should have we wouldn't be having this conversation because like Marc I would probably be dead.

You are ignoring the fact that simultaneous/near simultaneous deployments happen very often with good results. Of course it doesn't always happen that way, but cutting away first doesn't always give good results.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tfelber 0]

I'm not ignoring that fact. I had "good results".

I am stating exactly what happened and what my EP's are if it ever happens again, period!

[Auryn 0]

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I'd rather have 2 out than 0 out

Hell Ya

A few questions for the group:

What is the definition of a total malfunction?

~Nothing out

With a PCIT, is the container open?

~Usually not, however it can be if the bridle fouls after pulling the pin.

What are the benefits of cutting away first, will it release anything?

~Releases the main risers.
If the P-C-I-T is being caused by a too tight closing loop, when the reserve is deployed the main pack tray usually loosens up some, and may allow the pin to be pulled deploying the main at the same time and place the reserve is deploying.
Cutting away 'could' lower the chance of an entanglement.

If the pin isn't pulled on reserve deployment, it could be during the reserve descent, if the risers are still attached you could have a two out.

I've personally had this malfunction. It was a hop n' pop from 3k. I left the step of the cessna, pitched and got nothing. Looked up and saw my PC at full bridle extension, chillin out. I gave it a second and went to my handles-I wanted to take my arms out of the relative wind to enourage getting horizontal faster because I didn't want my main bridle in the way of the reserve and I knew I had a total of 10 seconds to 2k. My hard deck is 1800, so I thought this was a safe course of action. After 2 or 3 seconds with my arms in, the main deployed normally.

The cause was a really tight closing loop (yes, they can be too tight) combined with having my pin arranged straight up, and an extremely slow airspeed of the cessna. (I found out after the fact that the stall horn was disabled in the AC so he could fly that slow and not scare the jumpers.)

Trust me, you don't want this situation. My immediate reaction to it was "I'm fucked" followed by my training kicking in. However, I knew at the time that my survival chances dropped by a signifigant margin. It is a situaiton in which you could do everything right and still die.

Another aspect of having a too tight closing loop is wear and tear on the pin and topmost grommet. Manufacturers have standards regarding loop tension, follow these recommendations. As a packer for 4 summers I've loosened as many loops as I've tightened.

[sundevil777 93]

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I'm not ignoring that fact. I had "good results".

When you say:

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Had my reserve opened as it should have we wouldn't be having this conversation because like Marc I would probably be dead.

You are ignoring the fact that simultaneous openings happen quite often, usually with good results. The good results of your incident aren't relevant because the reserve was never pulled into the path of the deploying main, correct?

I don't mean to be rude, but when it is said there is no reason for debate about this topic, I can't help but argue.

When the USPA training committee/whatever they are called decided to write the SIM as they did, it was because the debate is not clear as to what is the best strategy. The guys in that committee are some of the best in the sport, and acknowledged that the best strategy isn't obvious. There are other factors than just the chances of entanglement, such as whether it is wise to have another branch of the decision tree for the PCIT compared to other mals. Bill Booth thought not cutting away was better, and showed that in the decision tree that used to be on his website (can't find it anymore).

This PD/army study is worth posting again, and should be read by anyone that hasn't already done so:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,393]

>Had my reserve opened as it should have we wouldn't be having
>this conversation because like Marc I would probably be dead.

Nope. Dual deployments happen all the time and are one of the less deadly issues that you might have to deal with in skydiving. They take care in dealing with, but all in all you are much better off under two canopies than under none (or even one damaged one.)