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tuffjump

Used reserve

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I'm getting back into the sport after an extended absence and was given a main and a reserve by an old friend who had just up graded his gear. I took the rig to a rigger for inspection and he told me that the reserve was no good because it had been jumped as a main. My friend told me it had one jump only as a main and no jumps as a reserve. My question is why can't it be re-rigged as a reserve. The rigger told me that the canopy was in good shape but could no longer be used as a reserve???? Any opinions?

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hi,
whats the make of the reserve? and are you sure there is only one jump on it?
i would think that most riggers would not put a canopy that was used as a main at any stage,and place it back as a reserve.i think the rigger is correct and covering himself. i am not sure that it is written in any rule book, its more of an unwritten code for a rigger.although i might stand corrected on that.
a possibility could be send it back to the manufacturer and let them inspected it and re-certify it.
or find a master rigger that could do a stress test and porosity test on it.
hope oyu get sorted
rodger

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hi,
whats the make of the reserve? and are you sure there is only one jump on it? I would think that most riggers would not put a canopy that was used as a main at any stage,and place it back as a reserve.



IIRC (and don't hold me to this, as it's second hand info) SOME reserves came with a pilot chute attachment point so you could jump it as a main once or twice and still be packed as a reserve.

I could be way off here, but that's what the riggers I worked with for my ticket told me... and well... take it for what it's worth.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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hi,
whats the make of the reserve? and are you sure there is only one jump on it? I would think that most riggers would not put a canopy that was used as a main at any stage,and place it back as a reserve.



IIRC (and don't hold me to this, as it's second hand info) SOME reserves came with a pilot chute attachment point so you could jump it as a main once or twice and still be packed as a reserve.

I could be way off here, but that's what the riggers I worked with for my ticket told me... and well... take it for what it's worth.



you are referring to the Raven reserves made by Precision. In which case the OP should be asking Precision on their stance on his reserve.

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hi,
whats the make of the reserve? and are you sure there is only one jump on it? I would think that most riggers would not put a canopy that was used as a main at any stage,and place it back as a reserve.



IIRC (and don't hold me to this, as it's second hand info) SOME reserves came with a pilot chute attachment point so you could jump it as a main once or twice and still be packed as a reserve.

I could be way off here, but that's what the riggers I worked with for my ticket told me... and well... take it for what it's worth.



you are referring to the Raven reserves made by Precision. In which case the OP should be asking Precision on their stance on his reserve.



(Not directed to likestojump)

Just a couple of things about Raven and Super Raven parachutes.

It isn't that the reserve was equipped with an attachment point. It is that the same canopy can be used as a main or as a reserve. That is, the family of parachutes known as Raven and Super Raven were built to be used as either. They were fine main parachutes in their day, and they were TSOd for use as reserves.

With regard to the manufacturer's position, it is stated in their manual.
A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve- You may, however, use a canopy which has been previously packed as a reserve as a main canopy. After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve.
So the only question that remains is if the canopy was used as a main ONLY ONCE.

More than one jump as a main disqualifies it for use as a reserve.

Of course, this parachute might be getting old, and depending on the DOM, any rigger might refuse to put it in a rig as a reserve, even if it had never been used as a main. I bought a new Raven IV in 1998, DOM 9/1997. I am not sure if you can still buy a new one.

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Hi ski,

I do not speak for any canopy mfr.

Quote

IIRC (and don't hold me to this, as it's second hand info) SOME reserves came with a pilot chute attachment point so you could jump it as a main once or twice



I have a PD 160PDR that has an attachment point but this specific canopy was built as a demo. I have never seen any reserve canopy ( other than the early Ravens ) that have the attachment as a standard feature.

But I do not know everything about all gear; in fact, some days I think I know very little. :P

JerryBaumchen

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Hi paul,

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With regard to the manufacturer's position, it is stated in their manual.
A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve- You may, however, use a canopy which has been previously packed as a reserve as a main canopy. After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve.
So the only question that remains is if the canopy was used as a main ONLY ONCE.

More than one jump as a main disqualifies it for use as a reserve.



That is an all-encompassing statement. While I do not spend my free time reading every manual there is, I do think that some mfr's allow one jump to be made as a 'familiarization jump.'

It would be interesting if someone were to spend a lot of time and do a posting on each canopy mfr and their position on this subject.

Anyone? :) Might make a great project for a rigger-trainee; I hope, I hope.

JerryBaumchen

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The quote says one jump as a main. You both agree.

As to a reserve that doesn't/didn't come standard with an attachment but some exist that were demos. I doubt that there is history on these canopies. # of jumps,# of packs, service, testing, etc. I would NOT pack a demo reserve canopy up as a real reserve.

To the OP, no one could tell the difference between one jump as a reserve and one jump as a main. If a rigger said it was jumped as a main that means it has wear and tear on it. No it can't be used as a reserve if it is a Raven and I wouldn't use it as a reserve if it's something else.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Hi paul,

Quote

With regard to the manufacturer's position, it is stated in their manual.
A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve- You may, however, use a canopy which has been previously packed as a reserve as a main canopy. After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve.
So the only question that remains is if the canopy was used as a main ONLY ONCE.

More than one jump as a main disqualifies it for use as a reserve.



That is an all-encompassing statement. While I do not spend my free time reading every manual there is, I do think that some mfr's allow one jump to be made as a 'familiarization jump.'

It would be interesting if someone were to spend a lot of time and do a posting on each canopy mfr and their position on this subject.

Anyone? :) Might make a great project for a rigger-trainee; I hope, I hope.

JerryBaumchen


Hi Jerry,

I quoted exactly from the Precision manual for the Raven canopy. They allow ONE jump as a main. That's not my statement, it comes from the Precision manual for the Raven canopy.

Their canopy is TSOd, and built to be used as either a main or a reserve.

But if you use it as a main for more than 1 jump, Precision says it is not to be used as a reserve.

If this is not a Raven canopy, then I got the wrong manual to quote.

But the quotes and position were not from me. They were from Precision.

I guess we can question that the manufacturer has the right to make such statements, but that's a different discussion.

The statement was not mine. It came from Precision.

-paul

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Hi paul,

Here is, to me, the inconsistency:

A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve

And then:

After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve.

The 2nd quote seems to say that if you jump it as a main, it is no longer a reserve. It may be nitpicking ( but that is what we do on the internet :P), but it would be better if that 2nd quote said:

If you intentionally jump the canopy as a main more than one time, do not return it to service as a reserve.

Just my thoughts,

JerryBaumchen

PS) As the years have passed & I've read your posts, I am thinking you would be a good candidate for the TSO committee. And I really mean this.

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Hi ski,

I do not speak for any canopy mfr.

Quote

IIRC (and don't hold me to this, as it's second hand info) SOME reserves came with a pilot chute attachment point so you could jump it as a main once or twice



I have a PD 160PDR that has an attachment point but this specific canopy was built as a demo. I have never seen any reserve canopy ( other than the early Ravens ) that have the attachment as a standard feature.

But I do not know everything about all gear; in fact, some days I think I know very little. :P

JerryBaumchen


It must have been the Raven reserves that I was thinking about, one jump as the main was what I recalled being told.

You've forgotten more than I can hope to know for a long time to come!
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Hi paul,

Here is, to me, the inconsistency:

A canopy which has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy (beyond one familiarization jump prior to reserve packing) should not be packed or used as a reserve

And then:

After you intentionally jump the canopy as a main, do not return it to service as a reserve.

The 2nd quote seems to say that if you jump it as a main, it is no longer a reserve. It may be nitpicking ( but that is what we do on the internet :P), but it would be better if that 2nd quote said:

If you intentionally jump the canopy as a main more than one time, do not return it to service as a reserve.

Just my thoughts,

JerryBaumchen

PS) As the years have passed & I've read your posts, I am thinking you would be a good candidate for the TSO committee. And I really mean this.



Hi Jerry,

I see your point. I don't dispute that there is an inconsistency.

I don't believe I have ever seen a manual, or a regulatory document either for that matter, that did not have some ambiguous content that should have been more effectively edited to eliminate such ambiguity.

And, to be clear, I see this as a problem in the editing, not in the essential content of the manual.

In this particular case, it seems to me to be pretty easy to figure out what the manufacturer was trying to say, even though it is said poorly in at least one of the places.

No, we should not be asked to make such interpretations. But it is, for all practical purposes, unavoidable.

-paul

PS To what TSO committee do you refer? Is that something at PIA? I looked at their website, and I didn't find a "TSO Committee". No matter, looking at the composition of the various gear-related committees, I don't think I can hold a candle to those august contributors. But I thank you for your compliment, no matter how undeserved it may be.

-paul

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I don't believe there is a definition anywhere of when a reserve is no longer a reserve. In grey areas it is up to the rigger to determine airworthiness.

The description in the Raven manual (written many years back) obviously has its issues and isn't a clear cut definition of what is allowed. Depending on interpretation, it makes it sound like one jump with the canopy in the main container is allowed, before packing it as a reserve, and that an intentional cutaway later on would ground the reserve.

A few jumps on a reserve doesn't destroy it, whether from a main container, as an intentional cutaway, as a needless cutaway from a popped toggle, or as cutaways due to a poorly packed, out of trim main canopy.

Even for a PD reserve with its service limits, you could do 25 jumps on the reserve before PD would like you to send it back for checks...

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Besides, where is it logged on the reserve/pdc?

The only reserves that I've seen that require you to log the jumps are PD reserves. Other than those, how else are you supposed to know?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I have never seen any reserve canopy ( other than the early Ravens ) that have the attachment as a standard feature.



You're forgetting about the Falcon. It has a bridle attachment point. But you don't see many people use them as reserve even though they are TSO'd.

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The 2nd quote seems to say that if you jump it as a main, it is no longer a reserve. It may be nitpicking ( but that is what we do on the internet :P), but it would be better if that 2nd quote said:

If you the canopy is intentionally jumped the canopy as a main more than one time, do not return it to service as a reserve.



I didn't jump it as a main. :)

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It's a Firelite reserve and I trust the guy that gave it to me without question. I talked to a rigger that I've known for thirty plus years and he doesn't understand the reasoning behind the issue. I like your idea about contacting the manufacturer. I appreciate all the input from everybody and am going to follow up on suggestions.

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