0
PiLFy

Reply from a recent Vigil tech support query.

Recommended Posts

I was following the Cypres vs. Vigil thread, off & on. I didn't receive this reply until after the thread was locked. I'm not sure why it was locked (too long?). Hopefully, I'm not breaking any rules by sharing this. Personally, I don't believe the arguments made for the Cypres servicing & short service life. My Newb opinion doesn't rate too high in that. So, here's what Vigil had to say:

Hello Kenny,

Candace has passed on your email to me so I will answer on her behalf.

We do believe you have valid questions.

The VIGIL does a self-check and goes through every component of the unit during its start-up, include the sensor. Sensors, just like any other electronic component, do fail on rare occasion and if it would, the unit would give you an error code (#3 to be specific), upon you would send the unit in to us in order to get this issue fixed.
Mandatory 4 or 8-year checks ensures a battery change but won't prevent a sensor failure (or any other electronic component for that matter) from happening the next day. Again, since there's no scheduled maintenance, the VIGIL will also indicate the need for a new battery during its start-up if so required.
The life expectancy of our batteries is 10 years or 2,000 jumps but we have reports and knowledge of units in the field of having logged several thousands of jumps. The Vigil has a very proficient power consumption and uses a much different technology than other AAD's on the market, such as the use of two power sources. The 20 year life expectancy is based upon the cutter, the Pulses Plus Element (the power source purely for the cutter) as well as all commercial grade components with the unit.
I hope this clarifies some of your questions and concerns.

Again, thank you for contacting us and don't hesitate to call or email again if you require more info and/or clarification!

Best regards,

Vladi Pesa
___________________________________________________
Kenny,

I just noticed a little typo in my email I sent.

The life expectancy of our battery is 5 years (not two) or 2,000 jumps, with a mandatory battery change after 10 years (if not used).

My apologies for any confusion I may have caused.

Vladi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't believe the arguments made for the Cypres servicing & short service life.



Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.

In terms of the servicing, I don't think that four years is an unreasonable time frame for an electronic instrument that spends a portion of it's time taking severe abuse (opening shock), and that literally is poised to sever your reserve closing loop in short order. To me, that seems like an area where a degree of reliability is called for, and sending a unit for a check every four years doesn't seem like overkill (keep in mind that 4 years could equal upwards of 2000 jumps for some folks).

As far as the service life goes, who knows? The Vigil hasn't even been on the market for 12 years (released in 2003) so the jury is still out in terms of AAD service life. My guess would be that 12 years is a conservative estimate on the part of Airtec, with the idea being to get the units out of the field before there is a failure. With that in mind, we won't really know how the Vigil stacks up against the Cypres in this area until 2017, when the first Vigils out there have surpassed the 12 year mark, and made it a few more years in the field.

Let's remember that the Cypres 12 year life limit was introduced long after the Cypres itself. Early on, there was no life limit, and everyone thought they would last forever. With less than 10 years in the market, there's nothing to say that the Vigil won't also sprout a life limit at some point in the future. Who knows what time in the field will reveal about the Vigil after 10, 12 or 14 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.

In terms of the servicing, I don't think that four years is an unreasonable time frame for an electronic instrument that spends a portion of it's time taking severe abuse (opening shock), and that literally is poised to sever your reserve closing loop in short order. To me, that seems like an area where a degree of reliability is called for, and sending a unit for a check every four years doesn't seem like overkill (keep in mind that 4 years could equal upwards of 2000 jumps for some folks).
...


I agree with you that 4 years a reasonable time to verify the Cypres.
I do not agree with your conclusions about the reasons for testing. Disagree with your reasoning on the complete test Cypres its elements.

Cypres does not check the deviation of the parameters of the pressure sensor. This is the main reason for testing the device. This is the only "mechanical" component in the AAD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just to be clear, the Cypres also does a self check at every start up, and will display an error code if there is a problem. It also displays the current battery voltage at the end of the self check.



For those of you reading this that own Cypres-2's, they don't display the battery voltage on startup. They count down from 10 to 0, and if you're in your service window, the date of the next service due.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CYPRES 2 tells you how many jumps were made with it, its serial number and the date of the next service due if you just press the red button (or blue or yellow ;)) after it counted down to 0.

@All: When we were given a tour of Airtec, Helmut Cloth told us about many aspects. Part of this was the search for a battery that would be small enough, resistant enough and powerful enough. They tested a great deal of batteries available and slightly came to terms with a plant that produced batteries as to "steer" them towards what was needed. That was at the beginning of the 1990s, so both plants pioneered in some ways. He told us that they were "pretty sure" the new CYPRES 2 batteries would last longer than 4 years but since it is their "first directive" to provide the safest solutions available they set this limit of four years (which is a conservative estimate I suppose). But during the service you not only get a new battery (quite often a new version/build) but also the latest firmware installed and everything is checked including filters etc pp. They also check the mechanical components under several, different conditions. Looks quite interesting to see a bunch of cables coming out of a pressurized/airtight freezer where the CYPRES units are exposed to increasing and decreasing air pressure at different temperatures - same goes in containers that are heated.

I can only tell anyone interested to just go a see with your own eyes; ask for a tour and you'll be impressed.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

CYPRES 2 tells you how many jumps were made with it, its serial number and the date of the next service due if you just press the red button (or blue or yellow ;)) after it counted down to 0.



I know that, but when I told that to a couple fun jumpers last weekend, they were surprised that it was able to do so.

(Still doesn't show the battery voltage though :P )
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We asked for this change as well. There are some facts: If the battery charge/voltage is too low, it will display an error code. If it's in its operating range it doesn't provide much useful information (and some jumpers even start to "mine is bigger^T higher than yours!)
Example: After a longer break, e. g. winter, the voltage is a little lower due to chemical processes etc. But after a very short while this effect has gone. But jumpers might be worried (WTF!!! Only 6,24 volts!!!!!) though it's still comfortably in its operating range.
So I can live with CYPRES 2 not displaying the voltage. B|

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand English is not your first language (nor is it mine) but could you please be a little more precise about your point? IIUC you mean there are/were a great number of CYPRES with faulty sensors? This can't be true. This would mean they either do not test them (but they DO and I (and many, many others) SAW it on-site) or they buy cheap shit that goes faulty after a short period of time (which is also not true if you see how scrupulously they choose the companies to deliver parts.)
Apart from that I would like some evidence for the statement of yours instead of a religious-like "You gotta believe." :S

But heck... I'm not gonna go into another useless discussion with you again. Consider yourself plonked. (German Usenet term) Nuff said.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I understand English is not your first language (nor is it mine) but could you please be a little more precise about your point? IIUC you mean there are/were a great number of CYPRES with faulty sensors? This can't be true. This would mean they either do not test them (but they DO and I (and many, many others) SAW it on-site) or they buy cheap shit that goes faulty after a short period of time (which is also not true if you see how scrupulously they choose the companies to deliver parts.)
Apart from that I would like some evidence for the statement of yours instead of a religious-like "You gotta believe." :S

But heck... I'm not gonna go into another useless discussion with you again. Consider yourself plonked. (German Usenet term) Nuff said.



Testing before the fact is all well and good, but once the device is in service, how does anyone verify the sensor without some sort of reference? If they put 2 sensors in, at least they could check for a certain max variance between them. But with only a single sensor, and no way to relate it to a verifiable value, you "just have to trust".

I believe this is what Nelyubin is trying to talk about.

And, as he said before, if your sensor gets replaced during your maintenance, you'll never know either.

This is why I think it would be a good thing to display something about the sensor during the power on tests. Having a barometer available would be all that's needed to get a good idea that the device has reasonable data.

Why rely on trust when we could easily verify?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They check the sensor data against the values of the barometer(s) in the pressure chamber during service. Check against an "absolute" value, if you like to.

The idea of yours is OK so far but would mean to have a calibrated barometer handy during the initialisation of the CYPRES.
The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote


Why rely on trust when we could easily verify?



Cost?



What cost?

I have a barometer. Lots of airports have a barometer handy.

Every airplane has an altimeter that can be used for a rough check.

IIRC if you set an aircraft altimeter to zero, the little window reads the local barometric pressure - the "station pressure".

One thing that would be important to understand is that aviation commonly speaks the barometer setting corrected to sea level. Things like ATIS and AWOS do not tell the "station pressure", but they tell the local sea level setting.

To do a proper test of an AAD, you would need the "station pressure", that is, an uncorrected barometer value.

But, as I said, you can easily get the "station pressure" from an aircraft altimeter if you have no other source.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think what Nelyubin is saying (and Nelyubin, please correct me if I am wrong), is that with the Cypres, the sensor gets checked once every 4 years. With the vigil, the unit can display what the sensor is currently reading and that value can be checked against an accurate barometer.

This is two different approaches to dealing with the same issue. The choice is then personal preference, which is better to you?

I personally like the idea that I know that the Cypres's out there are getting checked every 4 years. I have no idea how often, or if at all, if Vigils owners are checking what the display is reading against a barometer. I have never heard or seen anyone with a Vigil do that check.

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.

Derek V

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.



I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.



I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.



Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.



I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.


Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?


Depends how much they cost. ;) I don't pack many rigs, and yes, my tools were expensive, but they can be used on all the rigs I pack.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Would be interesting if it was a required maintenance for the rigger repacking the reserve with a Vigil to verify that the reading is within 10mbar at each re-pack.



I would be all for it if they supplied an accurate barometer to the riggers.


Who is "they"?

I have a lot of money invested in my tools. Nobody supplied them to me.

I am sure you are no different.

So, if that is part of our craft, if that's what it takes to do the best we can on behalf of our customers, won't you get the tool you need?


Depends how much they cost. ;) I don't pack many rigs, and yes, my tools were expensive, but they can be used on all the rigs I pack.


Don't most rigs you pack have an AAD?

I am not limiting my wish that AADs gave us more information to any particular brand. I think it would be great for all AADs to let us be proactive in determining their health. Just because there is only one that lets us do that now doesn't mean it will always be that way.

A quick check says there are digital barometers available in a wide range of prices, from about $30 up.

I don't in any way think of this as a replacement for periodic maintenance and evaluation by folks with more specialized tools than I have. So I don't presume I'd need a lab-quality instrument. Personally, there is a barometer in my home weather station already. So I'd just use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

I am currently out of the office until June 27th and will have limited internet access. I will reply to all voice mails and email periodically and upon my return in the order it was received.

Thank you!
___________________________________________________
On Jun 17, 2011, at 7:14 PM, ***********************wrote:

Hello Again Vladi,
A further question has come up in our debate. How exactly does the Vigil2 self-diagnostic determine the pressure sensor is accurately reading atmospheric pressure? How do we, as end users, know that the unit is properly calibrated w/respect to barometric pressure?
Thank You, & have a nice weekend.
Kenny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just because there is only one that lets us do that now doesn't mean it will always be that way.



The Argus will also display the barometric pressure.

Quote

A quick check says there are digital barometers available in a wide range of prices, from about $30 up.

I don't in any way think of this as a replacement for periodic maintenance and evaluation by folks with more specialized tools than I have. So I don't presume I'd need a lab-quality instrument. Personally, there is a barometer in my home weather station already. So I'd just use it.



With no idea of the accuracy or precision of the barometer in your home weather station, comparing it to an AAD is of limited value, IMO. In fact, I'd have more faith in the readings from the AAD, which presumably meets some specified level of precision and accuracy and has been calibrated, than in the readings from the consumer device in a home weather station.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0