Buying an Argus for my Wings? Bad idea?

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I'm curious what everyone things about buying a "banned" Argus. I've been reading a bunch about the Argus and the SB's, incidents etc... I currently have no AAD in my wingsuit rig and I am jumping it, but I prefer to have one. The rig is a Wings, so it's not banned. My intent with having an AAD is primarily to have a backup in the event of me getting knocked unconscious.

Does anyone have any insight on whether buying an Argus from someone who is unfortunately affected by the Ban is a good idea, bad idea?

I am a rigger, so adding/removing it from a rig of mine is not a big deal, but I'm just wondering if I'm missing anything that I haven't considered etc. I have read about the incident where it seems to have "pinched" the reserve ripcord, locking the container. But like I was saying, it's for if I ever get knocked unconscious and with the cutter on the bottom of the rig, I'd hope that under 99.9% of circumstances, I'd be pullling the ripcord myself and not require the cutter.

Thoughts?

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[billvon 2,723]

If you can get a good deal, it's probably better than not having an AAD. If you do buy one, make sure that you check the AAD before each jump to see if it's misfired without cutting the loop. (Should be doing that anyway, of course, but even more important with an Argus.)

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Would it indicate something specific in that case? I'd hope it would say fired, or error or something. I've never seen this scenario on any AAD, so I don't know how any would display a "fired" cutter.

And I'm thinking $450 for a Dec 2008 model is a pretty decent deal.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[theonlyski 3]

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Would it indicate something specific in that case? I'd hope it would say fired, or error or something. I've never seen this scenario on any AAD, so I don't know how any would display a "fired" cutter.

And I'm thinking $450 for a Dec 2008 model is a pretty decent deal.

There was a thread about how to tell if an AAD was fired. Search for it, was only a few months ago.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks!

For anyone else interested:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4083951;search_string=aad%20fired;#4083951

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Rover 9]

Don't travel to NZ as the Argus is banned in all containers.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I hadn't actually considered that it was still banned regardless of the rig in some countries. I generally stay within Canada/US anyways, so I should be fine with that. Worst case, I'll take it out while I'm on a trip.

Thanks!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[piisfish 136]

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Worst case, I'll take it out while I'm on a trip.

and in some countries AAD's are mandatory... so you will have to rent another AAD for the trip... Unless you are your own rigger, the cost of changes etc will outgrow the initial "low cost"

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AndyMan 7]

Talk to your rigger first, and make sure to get their opinion first. I figure the loft at Ottawa will probably have no problem, since they also sell them. Other riggers have different opinions. For example, personally - until things change, I wouldn't pack an Argus into any container, no matter what the manufacturer says.

If you get it cheap, and have riggers that will install it and repack it? Probably better than not having one at all.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I think you might be referring to another Ottawa. I'm in Ottawa, Ontario, not Ottawa, Illinois... Doesn't really change much anyways.

On that note, I happen to be VERY close with my rigger and just asked him about installing it. He said "Quit talking to yourself, you look like a fool". I have no issues installing it in a bottom mounted cutter rig.

The one question that I haven't received any comment on is whether I can legally use Cypres loop with an Argus, or any other AAD for that matter. Someone PM'd me this info, but I don't know what legal implications Cypres can use against me packing my own rig with an Argus and Cypres loop material. Any other riggers willing to comment? I'm only assuming Argus, Vigil etc...did their testing using Cypres loop, so why change it now, or create your own?

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[AndyMan 7]

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The one question that I haven't received any comment on is whether I can legally use Cypres loop with an Argus, or any other AAD for that matter. Someone PM'd me this info, but I don't know what legal implications Cypres can use against me packing my own rig with an Argus and Cypres loop material. Any other riggers willing to comment? I'm only assuming Argus, Vigil etc...did their testing using Cypres loop, so why change it now, or create your own?

If you've got an Argus, then the rigger must refer to the Argus instruction manual.

The Argus riggers manual clearly says

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Argus loops are made from Dyneema line and are specifically designed for use with the system. This
is a thin material with a diameter of ~1.8mm and a breaking strain of approximately 180kp – 200kp.
Only Argus or Cypres™ loop materials are permitted.
The use of other materials could cause damage to the loop hole coating in the release unit and is NOT
PERMITTED.

So yes, it's my opinion that "Cypres" loop material can be used in Argus AAD's.

I don't see any reason to consult documentation from Airtec since they didn't make the Argus, and I understand they don't actually make the closing loop line that's commonly refereed to as "Cypres loop" either.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[-ftp- 0]

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. I have read about the incident where it seems to have "pinched" the reserve ripcord, locking the container.

you mean pinched the closing loop right? Locking flaps closed where the cutter is installed on top of them?

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Yes, sorry about the typo.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[bwilling 0]

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So yes, it's my opinion that "Cypres" loop material can be used in Argus AAD's.

I don't see any reason to consult documentation from Airtec since they didn't make the Argus, and I understand they don't actually make the closing loop line that's commonly refereed to as "Cypres loop" either.

Airtec feels differently...

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[AndyMan 7]

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So yes, it's my opinion that "Cypres" loop material can be used in Argus AAD's.

I don't see any reason to consult documentation from Airtec since they didn't make the Argus, and I understand they don't actually make the closing loop line that's commonly refereed to as "Cypres loop" either.

Airtec feels differently...

I'm familiar with their opinion, I just don't see why it's relevant. If the AAD manufacturer tells me Cypres loop is acceptable, that's good enough for me.

Also, Airtec does not state the materials can not be used, they only state that it has not been tested, and Airtec can not take responsibility. That's fine.

In this case, A.A.D does specifically state that the material IS tested with the Argus, and that AAD takes responibility for its use.

Following the manufacturers instructions is required, and the manufacturer of the Argus is AAD - not Airtec.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

They do say:

"The Cypres loop and disc system is not to be used in combination with other AAD's"

That being said, this seems strictly like Airtec offloading legal responsibility. Now, if Airtec has the patent to that specific thread, this could be a different story. Since it's standard Dyneema, I can just as easily take the Cypres loop material (Dyneema) and spool it onto a Vigil spool and guess what? Now it's Vigil loop material...crazy!

I think the important fact is that the cutter was tested with the standard material and that's what matters. The manufacturer did testing and it was found to be compatible with a "type" of material, not a specific Manufacturer's "created" material.

*If Cypres does have a patent on their cord, this is all incorrect, but I'm fairly certain that a company such as 3M (or whomever) owns the patent to that cord/material.


If anyone is curious on the patent for Dyneema (spectra):
http://www.freshpatents.com/High-strength-polyethylene-fiber-dt20070628ptan20070148452.php

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[HSPScott 0]

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So yes, it's my opinion that "Cypres" loop material can be used in Argus AAD's.

I don't see any reason to consult documentation from Airtec since they didn't make the Argus, and I understand they don't actually make the closing loop line that's commonly refereed to as "Cypres loop" either.

Airtec feels differently...

Funny how that comes at pretty close as the recommendation of the PIA for the ban of Argus AADs.......

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Another interesting point that was raised to me via a PM:

(I'm saying this with sarcasm to prove a point)

How much would it cost to remove a "Cypres" pocket, and have an "Argus" or "Vigil" pocket installed in your rig? Anyone?

This makes just about as much sense as Airtec saying that their cord cannot be used with any other AAD's. Better ground the rest of the Argus' and Vigils out there if they are using Cypres loop, and/or pockets too! Oh, and don't forget the washers, cause if you're using a Cypres washer with a Vigil or an Argus...it could cause catastrophic failure since it was only designed for use with the Cypres.

Anyways, I'm being way too cynical now.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[funfall 0]

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In this case, A.A.D does specifically state that the material IS tested with the Argus, and that AAD takes responibility for its use.

Following the manufacturers instructions is required, and the manufacturer of the Argus is AAD - not Airtec.

_Am

Aviacom must appreciate A.A.D. taking responsibility for use with the Argus. (Aviacom makes the Argus; A.A.D. the Vigil.)

[AndyMan 7]

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Aviacom must appreciate A.A.D. taking responsibility for use with the Argus. (Aviacom makes the Argus; A.A.D. the Vigil.)

Oops.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[lrozyn 0]

a girl died last year at my DZ - argus didnt fire

i wouldnt count on it

[pchapman 275]

Great, no location, no profile, totally new accusation without details. Care to provide more info?

[likestojump 3]

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a girl died last year at my DZ - argus didnt fire

i wouldnt count on it

Did the Argus kill her or fail to save her ?

just sayin'...

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Based on the last post in this thread, he/she's in Poland...I don't think it's a new incident, it's the one we all know of.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4048981;#4048981

That being said, I've purchased an Argus and am fully comfortable jumping it. Now, I'm slightly "UN" comfortable jumping my Cypres in my Mirage as it's susceptible to the same type of problem. It's a little bit disconcerting to know that it's possible.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[gjhdiver 0]

There's nothing wrong with Argus unit at all. I have two, and Wings isn't the only system that allows them. Infinity is another, and there are more.

I'm more than happy with mine, and don't intend to replace them.