riggergreg 0 #1 June 3, 2011 Since Cypres material is not to be used for any other AAD and Vigil has no washers or info on how to order anything, Anyone got any ideas? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #2 June 3, 2011 Did you look HERE? A local Vigil Dealer should be able to provide you with the parts you need or can order them for you."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dcgilbert 0 #3 June 3, 2011 I am not a rigger, and certainly understand why a rigger would choose to follow the Airtec instruction about not using their loops with any other AAD. That being said, can someone please explain to me how Airtec can overrule the manufacturer of the Vigil? They explicitly state in their manual in the installation instructions (p. 9) that Cypres loop is perfectly acceptable to use with their cutter. Just curious about the legality, since it seems to me that AAD as the manufacturer has the final say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggergreg 0 #4 June 3, 2011 QuoteDid you look HERE? I did and they have no washers and won't tell me how to order anything. QuoteI am not a rigger, and certainly understand why a rigger would choose to follow the Airtec instruction about not using their loops with any other AAD. That being said, can someone please explain to me how Airtec can overrule the manufacturer of the Vigil? They explicitly state in their manual in the installation instructions (p. 9) that Cypres loop is perfectly acceptable to use with their cutter. Just curious about the legality, since it seems to me that AAD as the manufacturer has the final say. I believe they(Airtec) have a patent on the washer/loop system. They can regulate who can and cannot use it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #5 June 3, 2011 Did you contact your local dealer in Tx or the Vigil US office (Candy)?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #6 June 3, 2011 QuoteI believe they(Airtec) have a patent on the washer/loop system. They can regulate who can and cannot use it. Airtec used to say that their smileys and loops should be used on all rigs, even those without AAD's, because they are "better." Wonder what their stand is today on their loops being used on non-AAD equipped rigs? Could it be argued that they made those items industry standard by their previous actions in encouraging those parts to be used on all rigs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nelyubin 0 #7 June 3, 2011 QuoteDear sirs. I use many years your devices Vigil and Vigil-II. Lately Airtek have published "Rigging Information CYPRES Disc" I can use disks of manufacture Airtek? Thanks for your attention. QuoteWe thank you for your email. ... no objection that you use the Cypres disc. There is also no influence of it to the used AAD and is completely independent of it. We stay at your entire disposal for any further information you may require Best regards Edwin Bollaerts Project Manager AAD nv/sa 193, Bld A.Reyers 1030 Brussels - BELGIUM T: +32 (0)2 732 65 52 F: +32 (0)2 736 06 27 [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #8 June 3, 2011 Hi greg, Try here: http://www.vigil.aero/contact My experience with Candice is quick or faster responses. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #9 June 3, 2011 I spoke with Candy at Vigil USA today about your request. You can contact Vigil USA for the items you need. They are currently awaiting a shipment to arrive from Belgium but you can put your request in now if you so choose. Hope that helps you out. "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 June 4, 2011 "QuoteSince Cypres material is not to be used for any other AAD ..." ........................................................................ Gasp! Shock! and horror! Does that mean that I just broke the law while packing a bunch of rigs containing: FXC 12000, FXC Astra, Argus, Vigil 1, Aigil 2, etc.? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #11 June 4, 2011 Quote Does that mean that I just broke the law while packing a bunch of rigs containing: FXC 12000, FXC Astra, Argus, Vigil 1, Aigil 2, etc.? Yes, turn yourself into the local police station and make sure you tell them exactly what you did. Post the results."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 June 4, 2011 Quote " Quote Since Cypres material is not to be used for any other AAD ... " ........................................................................ Gasp! Shock! and horror! Does that mean that I just broke the law while packing a bunch of rigs containing: FXC 12000, FXC Astra, Argus, Vigil 1, Aigil 2, etc.? [sarcasm] I think you're pushing you luck, Helmut himself might come after you now[/sarcasm] What I do find ironic is that right on SSK's website, the announcement of using the loop with other AADs is listed as due to liability reasons. Yet in the the announcement right below it the paper goes on to say how great the loop is and that the author feels that there are skydivers alive today that would otherwise be dead if they hadn't had a Cypres loop in their rig, AAD or not. Furthermore, he goes on to say he is happy about it and its distribution. Seems kind of contradictory to me and my interpretation of it is that simply for CYA reasons ( ie:liability) that statement was issued and that riggers the world over will still use the cypres loop in rigs regardless of the AAD in it, if thats what they happen to have on hand at the time, especially if other AAD manufacturers don't have an issue with its use with their systems. The other question that comes to mind, is what makes it a Cypres loop? Does it have to come pre made from the factory to be a Cypres loop or does it automatically become a Cypres loop because a rigger finger traps the same type of material into a closing loop for use on a reserve, regardless of where he got the material? Rob, I'm no lawyer but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you're good to go and you didn't break any laws."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #13 June 4, 2011 Quote Rob, I'm no lawyer but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, What does this mean? I have seen people write it several times and there must be a story behind it. Just curious to know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #14 June 4, 2011 That expression comes from an advertising campaign - by the Holiday Inn chain of motels/hotels. It implies that people who sleep at their hotels are brighter, and more able to handle life's problems. It may be a corny joke, but it sells hotel rooms! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #15 June 4, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dOHEw8izno Like that. "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #16 June 4, 2011 Hi Scott, Quote The other question that comes to mind, is what makes it a Cypres loop? IMO this is the essence of the question. I have two spools of 'CYPRES loop' material. Both have a label ( probably made & affixed by AirTec ) that indicate that it is CYPRES loop material. Once I remove the label from the spool it is now just some loop material that could be used for whatever; how about shoestring mat'l? IMO ( and I do not speak for the FAA ) the FAA only 'controls' the maintenance of the AAD once it is installed. They do not 'control' the installation nor any of the materials used. That is a call for the mfr to make. I have never known the FAA to question what mat'ls I use; only how I purchase them, how I inspect them, how complete is my record keeping, etc, etc. If someone disagrees with this, I am OK with a difference of opinions. JerryBaumchen PS) And I agree with the 'irony' of their 'announcements.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruthers 0 #17 June 4, 2011 Is the reserve closing loop deemed to be part of the reserve system under the TSO certification? Are materials used for TSO systems required to be traceable? If the answer to the second question is yes, would using an unlabelled spool of material be acceptable? Quote Hi Scott, Quote The other question that comes to mind, is what makes it a Cypres loop? IMO this is the essence of the question. I have two spools of 'CYPRES loop' material. Both have a label ( probably made & affixed by AirTec ) that indicate that it is CYPRES loop material. Once I remove the label from the spool it is now just some loop material that could be used for whatever; how about shoestring mat'l? IMO ( and I do not speak for the FAA ) the FAA only 'controls' the maintenance of the AAD once it is installed. They do not 'control' the installation nor any of the materials used. That is a call for the mfr to make. I have never known the FAA to question what mat'ls I use; only how I purchase them, how I inspect them, how complete is my record keeping, etc, etc. If someone disagrees with this, I am OK with a difference of opinions. JerryBaumchen PS) And I agree with the 'irony' of their 'announcements.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #18 June 5, 2011 Hi ruthers, QuoteIs the reserve closing loop deemed to be part of the reserve system under the TSO certification? For my company: Yes QuoteAre materials used for TSO systems required to be traceable? For my company: Some mat'ls are but not all mat'ls. From what I know & understand; it will vary from company to company. I know of no FAR that mentions anything about traceability. Hope that this helps, JerryBaumchen PS) I could write a lot more but I do consider most info as being proprietary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #19 June 5, 2011 QuoteIs the reserve closing loop deemed to be part of the reserve system under the TSO certification? Are materials used for TSO systems required to be traceable? If the answer to the second question is yes, would using an unlabelled spool of material be acceptable? That still leaves the question of the CYPRES disc to anchor the closing loop. These discs have the CYPRES name stamped on them. But I am hard pressed to understand how Airtec might say they won't work. SSK tells me that both the cord and the discs are "allowed" in systems that have no AAD. I am unable to imagine how the presence of an AAD might affect how well the disc works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruthers 0 #20 June 5, 2011 Thanks for the response Jerry. With respect to allowing the cypres disc and loop in a rig without AAD, perhaps worth thinking about what effects an AAD can have on the loop. It makes sense for the loop manufacturer to limit their liabilities by explicitly requiring the material not to be used with other AAD's. I doubt they make money from the loop and disc materials. If the hole in the AAD is not smooth enough, it could result in loop wear and failure, (for example when climbing out the door) which is clearly a hazard. I guess the disc/loop manufacturer can be more confident that the other parts of the rig which are in contact with the loop (the grommets, pin and possibly a pin-covering flap) should not be presenting surfaces which will damage a loop. Who is responsible for ensuring that those parts are fit for purpose at the time a rig is packed? In terms of rough grommets or pins, is that part of the scope of the Inspection part of A,I&R? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #21 June 5, 2011 Hi, Ruthers. I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter whose loop material is being used if a cutter has edges that are wearing the closing loop! The material isn't the problem! The rigger who signs and seals the packjob is indicating that when the rig leaves the loft it is airworthy. During the I&R grommets, pins, stitching, webbing - the entire TSO'd system - is inspected and corrective measures taken if needed. That's why we make the big bucks. Edit: I see you're in NZ, Ruthers - my comments are made in regard to US/FAA rated riggers. I don't know the standards of your country. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #22 June 5, 2011 I thought this was the 'gear and rigging' section. What made it the 'legalities and liability' section? Just like on my computer where the software manufacturers want to do their legal battles on MY screen, now in MY reserve the AAD manufacturers want to do the same? The ought to be spanked! (Since that's not going to happen, let's just ignore them from now on, every time their corporate lawyer comes up with something silly...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #23 June 5, 2011 Hi ruthers, Anything that I post on here directed towards you is not to be negative towards you or to be condescending towards you. My goal is to, hopefully, provide some information, to provide my thoughts and, in some instances, my opinions. OK, you got me to get up off my keester & go look at the spool of 'CYPRES LOOP MATERIAL' that I have. It has the length of the spool on the label, it has the diameter ( 1,7 mm ) on the label & it has the strength ( 170 kp ) on the label. From my observation, this label was put on this spool of cording by AirTec. It does not appear to be identified in any other manner. So now, we ( you, me, anyone else who might care ) have some technical info about the cording. But we still do not know who the mfr of the cording is. So, even if we wanted to, we cannot trace it back other than the label that was put on by AirTec; which may or not be truthful ( I accept it as truthful until proven otherwise ). Depending upon how each gear mfr lists the 'Locking Loop' mat'l ( that is the term that I use on my specifications that I have to submit to the FAA ), this may or may not meet those req'ments. As to whether this 'CYPRES' loop material is acceptable or not is a decision by the specific mfr as they, and only they, make the decisions as to what materials they will use in the mfg process. The FAA will not tell a mfr what mat'ls to use, they do not know enough to do that and they are NOT the designer of the equipment. However, they can say that some specific mat'ls do not meet the technical req'ments indicated in the specifications for the equipment in question. Does this make any sense to you? I hope that it does. QuoteIt makes sense for the loop manufacturer to limit their liabilities IMO If any given rig mfr buys the loop mat'l in bulk ( i.e., a spool of it ) then the rig mfr is the 'loop manufacturer' and not AirTec. Now, if one were to buy pre-built loops from AirTec ( and I have a quantity of those ) then it might get into a gray area; but then again, AirTec has no identifier on the loops that they sell. QuoteIf the hole in the AAD is not smooth enough The AAD is not a certificated device. The FAA only addresses it in regards to it being maintained as the AAD mfr states. QuoteI guess the disc/loop manufacturer can be more confident that the other parts of the rig which are in contact with the loop . . . should not be presenting surfaces which will damage a loop. I would hope so. One thing I do not like about a CYPRES washer is that it is made of aluminum and I do not like dis-similar metals coming into contact with each other. I would like to see the washer(s) made from Stainless Steel because that is what they push/pull up against. I have been thinking about this and am considering adding a Stainless Steel washer between the CYPRES washer & the S/S grommet in the container. This would make the S/S washer ( that I add ) & the CYPRES washer the sacrificial parts that could be easily replaced as needed and prevent any negative effect on the S/S grommet in the container. Your post ( IMO ) addresses two different things: The manufacturing process & then the maintenance process. IMO They are two completely seperate things; but lots of us ( including me ) often address a multitude of issues in a posting; it's human nature. I sure hope that I haven't confused you with all of this but sometimes ( IMO ) it is simply not possible to properly answer a question in 25 words or less. JerryBaumchen PS) Is the nomenclature 'kp' for kilo-pascals? If so, it might not be correct as I found this: Psi is 1 pound of force per square inch. Kilopascal equals to 1000 force of newton per square meter. 1 Psi = 6.89475729 Kilopascals (kpa) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruthers 0 #24 June 5, 2011 Great post, thanks, and I don't mind the length. In this case, kp should be "kilopond", meaning kilogram force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram-force If stainless and aluminium react (unlikely unless they are wet and possibly a bit of salt in there - which shouldn't be inside a h/c!) the aluminium will corrode, the stainless should be undamaged, except perhaps that if aluminium oxide is generated at the touching surfaces, it might scratch the grommet. I suspect that airtec would have tested the corrosion aspects of the disc. Have you ever seen any corrosion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #25 June 6, 2011 Hi ruthers, Quote In this case, kp should be "kilopond", meaning kilogram force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram-force Thank You, that is one that I did not know about. I'll have to look it up. The old engineer in me simply does not like dis-similar materials coming into contact with each other. I just cannot help it. I have never seen any corrosion but I am 90 miles from the ocean. And I have no idea of what testing AirTec might have completed. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
