Head down fatal risk ?

[aeroflyer 0]

The fact that a person can fall out of a properly adjusted harness is disturbing... I am confounded as to why manufacturer's haven't addressed this. It doesn't happen often but obviously, it can happen!

[freefall80 0]

Usually I dont reply to these speculating threads, but this was someone I knew, and the reason I have decided to reply is as usual there are people with 50 jumps, 100 jumps, 300 jumps saying stuff as if they are skygods and know everything.

-Yes... it is entirely possible to forget to do up any or all of you straps... even your parachute. You may think you would never do this, but it can happen to the best of us, for any amount of reasons.

-Yes... it is also entirely possible, due to the weight and size ratio, that a rig in freefall without an occupant could fall fast enough to fire the aad.

-Yes... people with over 1000 jumps still do solos... Test a new parachute, work on stability, maybe there is no one to jump with and you just need to get some air...

-I would imagine that a done up strap could easily work its self loose from the flapping that would occur in freefall... but not so much so under some fabric...


-What about winds... if the winds were relatively strong, and he fell out of his harness as the aad fired, it would be perfectly feasible that the rig could end up a long way from where he was.




At this stage as with all situations like this, people can only speculate what happened, and may be we will never know what went on. Maybe he fell out of the harness in freefall... maybe he lost track of altitude (which we all do at some point) and as the add fired he was ejected from his harness... we probably will never know.

As meticulous as some of us maybe of our pre/inflight equipment checks... stuff happens. As a working skydiver, and being rushed for loads all the time, I vowed to never get in the plane before everything is done up and checked... even if I am being pressured. But one time at 8k I released my leg straps were not yet done up... It happens... even if you think you will never forget anything... even the best prepared person... at some stage in their skydiving career will forget something. Maybe its a small thing, maybe its a big thing, maybe you realise, maybe you dont... stuff happens!

RIP buddy. T.

[airtwardo 6]

Maybe he fell out of the harness in freefall...

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Just to add~

A few years ago my new container arrived and having never had to bungee the legstraps on my prior rig I didn't bother on this one.

First jump I did was a solo to acquaint myself with it, during a back loop the damn thing almost came completely off me!

The legstraps were snug but not painfully tight, they caught on my lower grippers, the chest strap on my helmet.

When I landed I did two things, changed my shorts and attached a short bungee to the legstraps on the rig, haven't had a problem since. I have included checking the bungee as part of my prior to exit gear check.

I can see how some faster more radical head down moves could possibly put one in an even worse predicament than I experienced.

Not saying this is what happen in this incident, but the possibility does exist.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[virgin-burner 1]

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All straps beeing undone like that sounds to me like suicide

I have to agree....


Hard to imagine that a completely undone chest strap and fully loosened leg straps would simply go unnoticed prior to exit.

much more serious stuff hasnt been noticed, even after exit..

i'd vote for suicide also..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[-ftp- 0]

with a loose or unfastened chest strap in head down, i could see the rig slipping off a body kind of easily. All it would take is the rig slipping off the shoulders and you are in a heap of trouble.

I dont know the jumper, and neither do most of the people in this thread I assume. So I would never speculate suicide without a note etc. and would reccomend for the sake of people that did know him, you do the same.

BSBD

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..????

What does the jump number doing with jumping SOLO or not?

[ridestrong 1]

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so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..????

Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills.

I'm not saying your wrong.... but I don't know many FF'rs that "commonly" do solos whether they have 200 or 2000+ jumps. I personally think it's better to work on drills with another jumper NOT solo.


I agree we should hold back on speculation, and I didn't know the jumper. But right now with the few facts that have been provided they point to intentional deharnessing. When the rig is found with ALL straps completely undone it would be naive to not consider that possibility, sad as it is.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[DSE 3]

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Usually I dont reply to these speculating threads, but this was someone I knew, and the reason I have decided to reply is as usual there are people with 50 jumps, 100 jumps, 300 jumps saying stuff as if they are skygods and know everything.

-Yes... it is entirely possible to forget to do up any or all of you straps... even your parachute. You may think you would never do this, but it can happen to the best of us, for any amount of reasons.

-Yes... it is also entirely possible, due to the weight and size ratio, that a rig in freefall without an occupant could fall fast enough to fire the aad.

-Yes... people with over 1000 jumps still do solos... Test a new parachute, work on stability, maybe there is no one to jump with and you just need to get some air...

-I would imagine that a done up strap could easily work its self loose from the flapping that would occur in freefall... but not so much so under some fabric...


-What about winds... if the winds were relatively strong, and he fell out of his harness as the aad fired, it would be perfectly feasible that the rig could end up a long way from where he was.




At this stage as with all situations like this, people can only speculate what happened, and may be we will never know what went on. Maybe he fell out of the harness in freefall... maybe he lost track of altitude (which we all do at some point) and as the add fired he was ejected from his harness... we probably will never know.

As meticulous as some of us maybe of our pre/inflight equipment checks... stuff happens. As a working skydiver, and being rushed for loads all the time, I vowed to never get in the plane before everything is done up and checked... even if I am being pressured. But one time at 8k I released my leg straps were not yet done up... It happens... even if you think you will never forget anything... even the best prepared person... at some stage in their skydiving career will forget something. Maybe its a small thing, maybe its a big thing, maybe you realise, maybe you dont... stuff happens!

RIP buddy. T.

I'm sorry for your loss.

This year alone, we've caught two very experienced wingsuiters at altitude without legstrap and chest strap.
We've since mandated flight line gear checks similar to what they do in the UK.

As far as the distance, there was over quarter mile in separation between Dan Kulpa's body and canopy landing. I believe he separated from his harness around 900'-1.5k', so a half a mile in L/V winds wouldn't be a surprise.

[-ftp- 0]

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This year alone, we've caught two very experienced wingsuiters at altitude without legstrap and chest strap.
We've since mandated flight line gear checks similar to what they do in the UK.

Man that is some SCARY stuff! I would ride the plane down, sell my stuff and be done. Not judging them at all, but being that close to most likely dying, I think I'd be all set.

[peek 20]

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This year alone, we've caught two very experienced wingsuiters at altitude without legstrap and chest strap.

Why do you suppose that is? Are people not wanting to hang out before the load fully geared up because of discomfort or some reason like that?

I haven't been exposed to lots of wingsuiting, but every wingsuiter I have seen gear up puts their legstraps on at the same time as the wingsuit.

[DSE 3]

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Why do you suppose that is?

Arrogance, complacency, the "this will never happen to me" attitude...
One was a BMI that was trying out a new suit brand; he doesn't know why he missed his legstraps. He didn't want a gear check on the ground, but his mistake was discovered by a newly-trained wingsuiter who more or less insisted it needed to be done.

The other was fiddling with his chest strap (it was loosely fastened prior to boarding with his helmet clipped through it). I believe he disconnected it on the plane and then forgot to re-route it.
Now that there are wingsuits that hide the cheststrap too...I expect we'll have a few more 'catches.'

We had one guy from overseas who refused a gear check on the ground and was very annoyed when I went to give him one at our normal 10K check. No problems discovered, but some folks seem to view gearchecks as an insult of sorts.

I think it's easier to miss legstraps with one particular kind of suit than another, but with hidden legstraps, it can happen with any suit. There is no reason to walk around with legs out of straps, IMO. The rule amongst most experienced wingsuiters is that if you're zipped in, your leg/chest straps are tight.

Thread officially drifted... I've found it's very possible to miss stuff on the ground when you're self checking. Therefore, we've implemented a See/Say/Touch gearcheck much like a pilot does. It's caught these issues and raised a couple of others.

Question for Rob; is there any aspect of the deceased's clothing that might indicate a separation from the harness? Even loosely done legstraps would lptentially leave damage to the jumpsuit/clothing/skin, as might a loose cheststrap. There were separation marks on the incident I witnessed in Sebastian, but those were different circumstances.

[likearock 1]

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so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..????

Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills.

I'm not saying your wrong.... but I don't know many FF'rs that "commonly" do solos whether they have 200 or 2000+ jumps.

I suppose that would depend on what your definition of "common" is. If you interpret it as "the majority" of jumps then I agree, it is rare to find a freeflier who does the majority of his jumps as solos. If you recall, the poster I replied to was surprised that an experienced freeflier would ever do a solo.

But as I said, it's a lot more useful for a freeflier to do solos, working on transitions or difficult body positions, than for a flat flier.

[Beatnik 2]

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But right now with the few facts that have been provided they point to intentional deharnessing. When the rig is found with ALL straps completely undone it would be naive to not consider that possibility, sad as it is.

I am not suggesting in anyway that suicide isn't a possibility but could you explain how straps undone automatically indicates suicide? They may have be undone from complacency and missed with no gear check. There have already been a few examples in this thread of such and in one case even more serve with missing a rig entirely. Furthermore it seems like a complicated method to commit suicide to me. Wouldn't it have been easier to turn off the AAD and not pull? Maybe I am missing something but I don't see the logical jump to that when there are many possibilities that hold equal weight.

[ridestrong 1]

I'm sure more details will come out.

-How many people were on the load?
-Did he in fact have a new canopy?
-Was he on manifest as a high-pull?
-Did he frequently board the plane with loose straps?

Unfortunately the 2 most logical explanations for "the chest strap was completely undone while the leg straps were at their maximum slack" seem to be: intentional or complete noncompliance.

The chances of a jumper falling out of a properly routed and cinched harness is next to none.... I can see the chest strap being "completely undone" if it was accidentally misrouted... but the leg straps loosening to "their maximum slack"?? I could shake my empty rig in the wind for an hour straight and the leg straps are not going to loosen to their maximum slack.

I don't know man.... really I'm just wondering what exactly happened like everyone else. Either way it's a very unfortunate incident.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Canadianfella 0]

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so then, if it's a turbine load, with lots of people....I am having a hard time to think that a guy with a thousand jumps AND competency in head-down.... is doing a SOLO..????

Solos are common among experienced freefliers. While it would be rare to see a 1,000 jump belly flier do a solo, someone can do a HD or sit solo and really challenge themselves to get stable in different body positions. In fact, sometimes a solo is the best way to work on some of those drills.

I'm not saying your wrong.... but I don't know many FF'rs that "commonly" do solos whether they have 200 or 2000+ jumps. I personally think it's better to work on drills with another jumper NOT solo.


I agree we should hold back on speculation, and I didn't know the jumper. But right now with the few facts that have been provided they point to intentional deharnessing. When the rig is found with ALL straps completely undone it would be naive to not consider that possibility, sad as it is.

I'm not sure if you know who Mike Swanson is, but I hear he's a pretty experienced freeflier with a LOT of jumps. The last two times I saw him, at two different dropzones, three years apart, he was doing solos. On both of those occasions, he jumped more than one time each day and was solo every time I saw him.

Just because you're awesome or have a lot of jumps does not mean you don't do solos.

[ridestrong 1]

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I'm not sure if you know who Mike Swanson is, but I hear he's a pretty experienced freeflier with a LOT of jumps. The last two times I saw him, at two different dropzones, three years apart, he was doing solos. On both of those occasions, he jumped more than one time each day and was solo every time I saw him.

Just because you're awesome or have a lot of jumps does not mean you don't do solos.

true... it happens.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[mstlaurent 0]

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but the leg straps loosening to "their maximum slack"?? I could shake my empty rig in the wind for an hour straight and the leg straps are not going to loosen to their maximum slack.

This experiment is not valid unless you are in a wind tunnel. We could be surprised about the results.

[riggerpaul 1]

+1 to Beatnik's post.

And I'll add...

While the chance is small, there have been demonstrated cases where people fell out or very nearly fell out of harnesses that seemed like it should have been impossible.

The introduction of the little connector between the leg straps was prompted by this problem.

If he fell out, I wonder if it would then be possible, under just the wrong circumstances, for the unloaded straps to extend themselves in the wind. Sure, there would have to be no stows bands on the strap tails, or the strap tails would have had to come out of the stow bands too.

But, in the spirit of "stranger than fiction", I wonder if it is a possibility.

[Andy9o8 0]

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The introduction of the little connector between the leg straps was prompted by this problem.

Some day, somewhere, someone will invent the full-saddle. The split saddle is such a dinosaur.

I'm currently working on a new invention called a "belly band". No details, though, until my patent comes through.

[airtwardo 6]

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The introduction of the little connector between the leg straps was prompted by this problem.

Some day, somewhere, someone will invent the full-saddle. The split saddle is such a dinosaur.

I'm currently working on a new invention called a "belly band". No details, though, until my patent comes through.

Full saddle huh...can ya get B-12's with that?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Marisan 0]

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The introduction of the little connector between the leg straps was prompted by this problem.

Some day, somewhere, someone will invent the full-saddle. The split saddle is such a dinosaur.

I'm currently working on a new invention called a "belly band". No details, though, until my patent comes through.

Full saddle huh...can ya get B-12's with that?

Quick ejectors. That's what the gods wore back in the day.

[waveoff5500 0]

that sucks man, im sorry for your loss. whatever the reason it sucks to see another skydiver die, but reminds people that gear checks and such are a very important part of safety in our sport.

Blue skies for your friend, im sure hes flying up high looking down on all of us!

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[mototryph1 0]

I used to inspect, maintain, and fit harneses for pilots who flew aircraft with ejection seats. Unlike sport rigs the military harnesses had straps along the back, but we were required to instruct the pilots that when stowing the excess from their leg and chest straps, to fold it so that the excess is flush with its respective flap (chest, legs). If you fold it the opposite way you will see where it has a gap between the excess and the strap, fold it the opposite way and it will sit flush with the strap. Our Technical Orders (instructions) said that stowing them the incorrect way could cause them to loosen up!