0
Gary73

Vigil vs. Argus?

Recommended Posts

Quote

sometimes it <...> results in a reserve total malfunction.



It never did. We are still talking about an alleged failure mode, which may or may not be real, but it never resulted in a total malfunction as far as we now.

Furthermore if this failure mode is real (possible, but we can't tell yet), and the cutter is on top, and the failure mode is catastrofic (pulling the reserve pin will not release the pilot) (has never happend and is highly unlikly (although not impossible if .. , if .. if, ). Then it would still only occur it you activate below 800 feet, (which is even more unlikely) and the changes you'll survive are next to nill anyway.

Some others have commented Airtec/Cypres doesn't have this problems and therefore did beter development. This is simply not the case, Airtec/Cypres has kept them out of the limelight. This is not surprising, since this has been done since the introduction of Cypres I with help from the community. (see rec.skydiving discussions) This was sensible, since even with all the problems with Cypres I, the community was beter as a whole if people accepted the AAD as "safe".

Unfortunatly now the same mechanism (/myth) is used to push competition out of the way.

Through is there is not a single perfect AAD out there. Let people chose for themselves.

(In the same way chosing a RSL , pull-out or Skyhook are choices people make themselves, wich have direct influence on their safety)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

In the case of an Argus whose cutter has jammed the closing loop:

-Regular jump - no problem
-Total with reserve pull - death
-Cutaway and reserve pull - death
-Cutaway and no reserve pull - death



Can`t this issue be solved by just looking at the damn thing before jump?
Even if it did fire before and did not cut the loop, it was because you almost died on your last jump. Shouldn`t you at least check your rig before next jump?
I`m not negating that problem may arise, but solution (on skydivers part) can`t be simpler.

I`m still interested, what`s the time window of chance that it did fire and that you pull silver after that and live.
From the firing altitude you have about 4 seconds to impact. How much time for reserve deployment, 2-3 seconds? So If it fires, you have 1-1.5 seconds after that to pull the reserve, because after that you are fcked anyway. Please can someone more experienced help me on this.
dudeist skydiver #42

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have another proposition.
Let's be grown-up's
Let's weed the sport out of wusses
Let's take our responsabilities and ban all AAD's.

I would continue jumping, even if I already have been saved by an AAD.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I`m still interested, what`s the time window of chance that it did fire and that you pull silver after that and live.
From the firing altitude you have about 4 seconds to impact. How much time for reserve deployment, 2-3 seconds? So If it fires, you have 1-1.5 seconds after that to pull the reserve, because after that you are fcked anyway. Please can someone more experienced help me on this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQuJr5wuvSw&feature=player_detailpage#t=448s

Ofcourse the 'time window' will be different depending on AAD mode (student/expert/tandem). Then there is another question - what are the chances of jumper pulling silver in that small time frame, if he didn't do anything up untill that moment?


cheers,
Bart ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Let's take our responsabilities and ban all AAD's.



Or at least ensure that they are not mandatory to licensed jumpers anywhere, too many places have made AAD's mandatory.

Recent events have clearly shown that an AAD can kill you and the jumpers you are jumping with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I`m still interested, what`s the time window of chance that it did fire and that you pull silver after that and live.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQuJr5wuvSw&feature=player_detailpage#t=448s

Ofcourse the 'time window' will be different depending on AAD mode (student/expert/tandem). Then there is another question - what are the chances of jumper pulling silver in that small time frame, if he didn't do anything up untill that moment?


cheers,
Bart ;)

for my AAD save, I pulled silver "just after" the AAD fired. Altitude-wise it certainly would have worked, timing-wise maybe the pilotchute wouldn't have found it's way through the mess.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Recent events have clearly shown that an AAD can kill you and the jumpers you are jumping with.


Both recent and older events have repeatedly proved that AADs have saved far far far more people and that a lot more would have been if they had one...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Both recent and older events have repeatedly proved that AADs have saved far far far more people and that a lot more would have been if they had one...



Yes Argus' have saved lives, even very recently, but they are still banned.

Electronics age, and when thay age they are prone to failure.

They are also improved. But these 'improvements' do not necessarily make them more reliable.

As these things age, we will see more failures.

When we see a death from an activation that was out of the parameters of the unit, say at climbout, or door opening when there is a significant pressure change.

Will the death of an entire plane load prompt these things to be grounded, or do we have to wait for that to happen first.

If more people died by going in with nothing out and no AAD, which would be the case if they had not been invented; would our attitude be different, our opening altitudes higher?

Exit altitudes have definately risen, yet some people still open at 2k.

Students, those with heart troubles, tandems and some specific individuals should have mandatory AAD's.

But it is clear that they are not full proof, they have the ability to kill a competant and concious skydiver through mechanical or electronic failure.

Do we have to wait for that to happen before we get the choice?

It seems AAD's are currently mandatory in more places than not. This is wrong in IMO.

I do not usually post here, I just read, but this case prompted me to make an account so I could say my piece, I have done so, and will continue to jump without an AAD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are idealizing the competitor of Argus and Vigil. I have been a reader of Skydiving Magazine for many years and according my reading, this competitor has had its share of problems in the nineties and still has. Remember their recall of more than a thousands units with a faulty pressure sensor. The problem was known for a while but the recall came quite "late". I am not going to explain and comment again all the issues encountered with this competitor and its mystery culture since many posts have been put on this forum for many years.
On the other hand, don't put too much trust in a back up device, if it saves your life, good but it doesn't have to become psychological crutches. AAD are there to help us but can also create problems and the three main manufacturers are using about the same kind of components if not exactly the same for most of them.
Argus will find a solution soon and Vigil and Cypres are doing well at the moment. Vigil is preparing the Vigil III which will offer some additional very interesting features to make it "think" about more unusual situations. It took thirty years to get the skydiving gear we have now. In 1976 I was jumping a StratoCloud canopy now I am on Katana. What a change ! It will take some years too for the AAD to "foresee" all possible situations, but they are back up devices.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Will the death of an entire plane load prompt these things to be grounded, or do we have to wait for that to happen first.



This is what I worry about. The aviation authorities currently ignore AADs. By when an aircraft becomes damaged or worse in flight because of a misfire, that is sure to change.

Any student of Murphy and his well known laws will realize that this is going to happen sooner or later. AADs are not manufactured or tested to any standard other than what the manufacturer decides is sufficient. They are bound to fail in unpredictable ways eventually, just as all other electronic devices do. I hope your aad does not kill me.

Ken Gowler
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0