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GravityGirl

Cypres2 cutter broken, any rigger feedback?

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However, it is possible to pack the current version and not have breakage occur a majority of the time,




Here we go again - the same old argument that it's OK some of the time, but not OK other times.

With all the hoopla regarding Argus and the fact that some of their cutters might not work some of the time, why is the fact that Airtec has produced an inferior cutter OK?

I'm not trying to stir up Rhys; this is a very serious point. Either the CYPRES cutters are OK or they are not. The "they might not be damaged if they're rigged by magical hands" isn't good enough.

It's not about good or bad rigging if the design is susceptible to stress and fracture. Repeated I&R packing forces and stresses applied during use of the rig causing a component to structurally fail prematurely does not seem to me to be a very good selling point.

Even less so a safety point.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is Airtec not painted with the same brush as Aviacom if they both are producing shitty cutters?

N
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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>Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is Airtec not painted with
>the same brush as Aviacom if they both are producing shitty cutters?

I think it may be because when the cutters fail due to cable breakage they do not lock the reserve closed, rendering it inoperative. It's the difference between an RSL that gets disconnected once in a great while vs. an RSL that prevents you from opening your reserve once in a great while.

However, I also agree that it needs to be fixed.

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... when the cutters fail due to cable breakage they do not lock the reserve closed, rendering it inoperative.



Bingo. A conscious jumper following EPs can still extract the pilot chute from the container, even if the cutter is disconnected. We don't need to ban all AADs (since it's not just Cypres that operates like this, per the linked thread), but reducing the chances of any failure case should always be worth looking at.

psychoswooper, thanks for linking that thread; I missed that in my initial search, and it directly answers my question earlier in this thread about the behavior of AADs in this case.

I also wanted to roll up the various possible failure modes of a broken/disconnected cutter. I've included some possible prevention methods further down.

  1. Cutter cable completely severed during installation or repack.
    In this case, the unit would fail a self test when it was next turned on and the failure reported.

  2. Cutter cable partially damaged during install, repack, or damage due to use (eg: pressure during a bad landing, rig transport, or jumper (ab)use.)
    Here, the unit may pass a self test if the cutter was connected when it was turned on and could fail during the day's use if the loose connection was severed and the AAD met activation conditions.

  3. Cutter cable completely severed during the day's use after initial self-test (same jumper examples from #2 apply.)


So how serious are each of these examples?

#1 is easy to prevent; make sure to cycle your AAD after a repack. If you get your rig back with the AAD armed, cycle it. If it's off, turn it on as usual before your next jump.

#3 is a bit tricker since you don't know exactly when "too much" pressure might have caused damage to the cutter cable/mechanism. This said, if you have a particularly bad landing where you rolled on your rig, it can't hurt to cycle the AAD.

I think #2 is the example worth focusing on. An AAD with a cable/cutter that is damaged but quasi-functional may pass a self-test, then later become disconnected when it's needed in the air.

There's been some discussion about various manufacturers re-locating the cutter above the pack job (either above or below the pilot chute.) Doing so may have replaced one problem (overly-tight reserve packjobs "stuffing" the cutter) with another (AAD cutter/cable damage due to a more exposed location.) Clearly, the case least-likely to prevent intended activation would be best, but it's possible there isn't enough information to know which is the larger danger.

All of this said, perhaps we could reduce both of these potential cases on certain H/C models by moving the cutter back to the bottom of the pack job and releasing a SB reminding riggers not to cram larger reserves into containers that won't contain them.
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Radio

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You're right, Bill. I'm aware of that difference and agree with you the CYPRES cutter issue isn't about a locked container.

My earlier comments are about the quality of the cutters and consequently the reliability of the AAD. What follows is not directed at you, Bill, just getting my thoughts out here.

Does Airtec make a better cutter? I happen to think so, and IMO the knife is better than the cylinder. But if their cutters are being damaged and/or rendered useless through common rigging practices and use then the cutter is fundamentally flawed irrespective of blade design or protection. That should alarm CYPRES owners regardless the locked container issue.

Despite the locked container problem clearly being a very serious issue, using an AAD isn't about whether or not it will lock the container at 750' (an altitude that IMO makes most manual attempts at the reserve ripcord futile). That is a fault and failure, not a selling point. "Buy us, we won't lock your container closed!"

Having an AAD is about reliable back-up; if a skydiver is unable to pull his RRC for whatever reason the AAD will function and that function might just result in his life being saved.

An aspect of that proper functioning is having a cutter (or puller) that is securely attached to the system so a successful activation of the cutter (or puller) is possible.

Airtec, in my opinion, has taken a step backward, making cutters that are less reliable than previous cutters. Just because the broken connection has been found only on Mirages doesn't mean it is exclusively a Mirage issue. Time will tell if the cutters are not able to survive a normal lifetime in other rigs, but I recall an axiom of the sport: If one can consider the possibility of a fault or failure, then it can happen.

An AAD that has no chance of functioning is just a useless and expensive piece of shit taking up space in a reserve container.

Although I choose not to jump an AAD I, like many others, have an interest in safety and reliability of gear.

I'm not beating a drum or crying wolf. I am openly wondering why Airtec is not being scrutinized publicly for changing their known functional cutters to cutters that have been found to have a duplicatable total failure aspect.

This whole AAD thing lately is making me feel like the old days when AADs were for students and chumps.
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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So have any of you contacted Cypres regarding this problem?

I did after my cutter broke, and while I won't post here what they told me because my memory is shit and I will most likely misquote them i will say that they are very much aware of the problem and i was happy with the way they took the time to explain everything to me.

So before someone else asks what is being done about this issue why don't you contact them and ask them. They are the ones with the answers.
Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

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You're right. But don't forget Cypres has a lousy trackrecord in communication. The battery change became mandatory after a failed save, actively denying the possibility of an under canopy activation, untill someone died (even worse, after that starting a misinformation approach to obscure the facts). Hiding failed saves, where people went in (even Cypres was correctly set etc.) and stating units "worked correctly after carefull examination", without even having the unit.

PS
Don't forget the container locking is an hypothetical situation, where there isn't even a single shred of evidence (allot of speculation although) that any cutter has this failure mode.

I'm very surprised about even riggers, which I talk too, that don't even know exactly what is happening. (They know "something" is "wrong" with the cutter, but don't know anything else)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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So have any of you contacted Cypres regarding this problem?



No and I'm not going to as I am already aware Airtec knows of this issue.

Airtec's knowlege of the cutter issue is not the point I made in my post.
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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I think it may be because when the cutters fail due to cable breakage they do not lock the reserve closed, rendering it inoperative.


I've been trying to stay out of these discussions while we collect some Argus cutters for testing, but at this point, there is no evidence from the documentation on the PIA webpage that an Argus cutter will render a reserve container inoperative. The two incidents that have the best documentation are Portugal (the pictures are in the Italian incident link for some reason) and San Marcos. In both incidents, the loop was cut on the bottom side of the cutter and trapped on the top, meaning that if the ripcord had been pulled, the parachute system should have operated normally.

Thats all I have to say about this stuff for now.

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