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phoenixlpr

Crossbraced tandem canopy?

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The future is NOT a hybrid tandem canopy usining lo po materials.....



whoa, ZP is not the second coming of Christ!

Zp is a superior fabric for a top skin but has little to no advantage on the bottom. We have both fully ZP and hybrid mantas for our student operations and there is no difference in performance. The difference comes in gathering the and packing. full ZPs are a bigger pain than a hybrid. (I've also jumped a fully ZP Firebolt and found no difference in flight with a hybrid Firebolt.

F111 (not lopo) is also more resistant to tears than ZP.

Just because ZP improved canopy flight characteristics doesn't main every inch has to be ZP for a canopy to be good. That's a rather narrow perspective. You have to look at pros and cons of each and observe the application. Better does not equal appropriate. It's why we have different types of suspension line. It's why we different canopy planforms and it's why we have discipline specific container systems.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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The future is NOT a hybrid tandem canopy usining lo po materials.....



whoa, ZP is not the second coming of Christ!

Zp is a superior fabric for a top skin but has little to no advantage on the bottom. We have both fully ZP and hybrid mantas for our student operations and there is no difference in performance. The difference comes in gathering the and packing. full ZPs are a bigger pain than a hybrid. (I've also jumped a fully ZP Firebolt and found no difference in flight with a hybrid Firebolt.

F111 (not lopo) is also more resistant to tears than ZP.

Just because ZP improved canopy flight characteristics doesn't main every inch has to be ZP for a canopy to be good. That's a rather narrow perspective. You have to look at pros and cons of each and observe the application. Better does not equal appropriate. It's why we have different types of suspension line. It's why we different canopy planforms and it's why we have discipline specific container systems.



agree completely. I think the future is hybrid. but with the sail material for top skin and F111 everywhere else. Just watch zp may go the way of spectra - i.e. on its way out......

rm

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On a relatively low use light loading canopy like an AFF canopy there is not as much of a problem with a hybrid canopy. However on a loaded canopy, that sees repeated use, a low porosity bottom skin is silly.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Why is it silly?
It seams to work pretty well and one of the most popular Tandem canopies is still being made a a hybred.
I do jump a nybred in my personal Tandem system, but have a full ZP in the work system. I like both and they both work fine. But I am open to new info and hoping you can share some here.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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This female TM who weighs about 120 took some tiny petite girl who was closer to 100. I'm sure they could have used that FX-285. I was teasing her for loading whatever she was jumping at like 0.6 or something. She said that she probably should have used her regular main for the jump.:D

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Actually, hybrid canopies are what is currently being used in pretty much every mfgr's new military system. We constantly load those canopies(360 sq ft) quite heavy ,be it personnel with equipment, tandems or tandem bundles on a regular basis and the hybrids are performing fantastic. It offers the best of both worlds and makes a lot of sense for tandems or military applications IMO.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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On a relatively low use light loading canopy like an AFF canopy there is not as much of a problem with a hybrid canopy. However on a loaded canopy, that sees repeated use, a low porosity bottom skin is silly.



We don't do AFF, we do IAD. We do thousands of IADs per year. each of the canopies have done about 300-400 jumps each. Because of thye nature of the users, these canopies get alot of abuse. There is a fair difference betwenn a TM picking up his canopy and walking 100 feet to the hanger and a student that drags the canopy back from a feild a 1/4 mile away.

I also have old mantas that saw 15+years of this type of abuse (mantas can really stand the test of time). I don't recall having any issues with the bottom skin because of it's f111. The product is proven.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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Are you putting 1500+ jumps on the hybrid systems or are they more of a few hundred max and replace them systems?



Although I haven't done it with the hybrids, I've seen and personally used old f111 mantas with thousands of jumps, I repeat thousands of jumps before being decomisioned. They were not taken out of service because of bottom skin issues.

The wear put on an F111 bottom skin is not a mystery.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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Are you putting 1500+ jumps on the hybrid systems or are they more of a few hundred max and replace them systems?




Military RAM air Canopies are considered servicable and kept in service as long as they pass regular maintenance inspections and fall within the life cycle. The life cycle of a canopy is 15 years from it's date of manufacture or 12 years once it is put into service, regardless of the number of jumps it has. Also keep in mind that the type of wear and tear an AFF student would put on a system, a Joe will be even worse. However,the riggers do an outstanding job of maintaining the equipment and fixing deficiencies during inspections. If there is anyone out there who puts a system to the test and is hard on equipment it's the Military bar none.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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> Longevity of the canopy and preformance degrade issues.

Hmm. Between me and Brown, we once put about 2000 jumps on a PD190. Towards the end it would barely flare, and got relegated to use with only very light women. But it held together very well.

What caused it to be eventually retired was a lack of flare due to the increasing porosity, not any inherent loss of strength or wear. Had it had a ZP topskin, the wing would not have increased its porosity nearly as rapidly, and would have lasted a lot longer.

We also have two Silhouettes that have approx. 1000 jumps a piece. The 150 has been Amy's second canopy, and the 170 has been loaned out a lot. Both still work fine, and have kept their performance far longer than a PD150/PD170 would have. (Silhouettes have ZP topskins and F111 bottom skins.)

In addition, the Pilot, a popular intermediate canopy, has F111* ribs; they don't wear appreciably faster than similar canopies like the Sabre 2.

(* I use the term F111 for 0-3cfm non-ZP fabric, even though that's usually not what it is.)

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In addition, the Pilot, a popular intermediate canopy, has F111* ribs; they don't wear appreciably faster than similar canopies like the Sabre 2.



Does every ZP canopy has low-cfm ribs?



No. 95% of ZP canopies are ZP ONLY. BTW, do F-111 ribs make the packing easier (letting you "squeeze" the air more easily)?

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In addition, the Pilot, a popular intermediate canopy, has F111* ribs; they don't wear appreciably faster than similar canopies like the Sabre 2.



Does every ZP canopy has low-cfm ribs?



No. 95% of ZP canopies are ZP ONLY. BTW, do F-111 ribs make the packing easier (letting you "squeeze" the air more easily)?



Considering that many people have bitched about the difficulty of packing a new Pilot, I would guess it is a non-factor.

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I know, I know.

The little DZ I jump a bit at has 2 EZ's that are 10 year, 900 jump canopies and they are still in awesome shape.

The wear seems nominal over an all ZP canopy. Sure they last longer but buy how much? and how much is lost over line sets (yeah I know they should all be relined on schedule but, who we follen?) since the ZP canpoies seem to be more finicky over bad lines.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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>It looks like JoJo is now selling a 280 SqFt. x-braced tandem canopy . . .

You know, I was just thinking the other day that not enough tandem students were getting hurt in swooping accidents.



Well if everyone thought like that, we'd still have crappy 500 sq ft F111 mains.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>Well if everyone thought like that, we'd still have crappy 500 sq ft F111 mains.

Oh, I doubt it. When we went from the 525's to the Set-400's, I don't recall videos of tandem swoops making the rounds. We switched to them because they opened better, flew better and landed better, not because they were swoopable.

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