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dgermano

Argus Investigation - San Marcos

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True, so a more apt incident might be a reserve over a stabilizer that causes a fatal plane crash.



from a premature firing?

all AAD units have fired prematurely, and for that reason i choose not to use one. Unfortunately for MANY they do not have that option, they are forced by legislation to use an AAD and that AAD could kill them as much as it could save thier lives.

If I am killed by gong in, then that is my fault, if I die because my AAD fired as I was climbing out then that i not my fault.

I beleive students and tandems should have to use them but everybody else should have the choice.



How many of your jumps are without an AAD?

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Heck, the absurdly long waivers at most DZ's are there specifically to cover their asses - does that mean that you have no respect for any of them, since it shows they are more concerned about avoiding court problems than skydiver safety?


Signing a waiver at DZ does not affect jumper safety in any way (unless we consider, that some people may hurt themselfs with DZ provided pen :P ), so I don't have anything against these.


cheers,
Bart ;)

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>Signing a waiver at DZ does not affect jumper safety in any way . . .

Hmm. The waivers I sign have parts agreeing to follow DZ rules and often have information on rental gear operation, canopy flight rules, aircraft safety and alcohol policies. You don't think any of those affect jumper safety?

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Hmm. The waivers I sign have parts agreeing to follow DZ rules and often have information on rental gear operation, canopy flight rules, aircraft safety and alcohol policies. You don't think any of those affect jumper safety?


Ok, I should have been more specific - signing a waiver at DZ does not affect jumper safety in a negative way (atleast I haven't ever seen a waiver, obeying to would compromise jumper's safety - most of the time it's quite contrary). On the other hand, telling people, that jumping without an AAD is safer than jumping with Argus is something I can't agree with, since even though it's possible cutter problems, this device saved far more people than it killed.


cheers,
Bart ;)

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How many of your jumps are without an AAD?

Sparky



I have about 50/50 jumps on my own gear and tandem, I had a cypres in my sport gear for a short while a few years ago, but sold it when my friend had his fired on him for no apparent reason.

For freestyle skydiving training with my wife I think it is a good idea as we are in very close proximity while she is doing layouts etc etc.. so I would rather one then.

So about 2500+ jumps I have performed without one...

why you ask?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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How many of your jumps are without an AAD?

Sparky



I have about 50/50 jumps on my own gear and tandem, I had a cypres in my sport gear for a short while a few years ago, but sold it when my friend had his fired on him for no apparent reason.

For freestyle skydiving training with my wife I think it is a good idea as we are in very close proximity while she is doing layouts etc etc.. so I would rather one then.

So about 2500+ jumps I have performed without one...

why you ask?



I take it that during freestyle training you are videoing or are you working as a 2 person team?
I ask because I am interested.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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> ...The waivers I sign have parts agreeing to follow DZ rules and often have information on rental gear operation, canopy flight rules, aircraft safety and alcohol policies. ..



Ya know, I never read one, just ask if there are any trick questions...
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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I take it that during freestyle training you are videoing or are you working as a 2 person team?
I ask because I am interested.



i was interested in why you were interested...LOL

Yes she is the performer and I am the vidiot! We represented NZ art the world meets and world cup of 2006, 2007 and 2008.

She is concentrating on formation skydiving at the moment and is working towards Dubai 500, she is already accepted in the 200way sequential later this year which I believe is a more elite event, so if she does well there she should be in... after that we will continue our freestyle endeavours... In the meantime I am getting into competative swooping.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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>On the other hand, telling people, that jumping without an AAD is safer than jumping
>with Argus is something I can't agree with . . .

No one is saying that. If you feel that jumping without an AAD isn't safe, then don't jump without an AAD.

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No one is saying that.



Some H/C manufacturers seem to imply that by their Argus bans. They don't disallow using their rigs without an AAD, yet they banned Argus units, ergo, they seem to imply no AAD is better than Argus AAD (unless they think otherwise, and it's really just about covering their back in possible lawsuits).

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If you feel that jumping without an AAD isn't safe, then don't jump without an AAD.



I don't feel jumping without an AAD is not safe, but jumping with one is safer in great majority of cases.


cheers,
Bart ;)

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No one is saying that.



Some H/C manufacturers seem to imply that by their Argus bans. They don't disallow using their rigs without an AAD, yet they banned Argus units, ergo, they seem to imply no AAD is better than Argus AAD (unless they think otherwise, and it's really just about covering their back in possible lawsuits)...



The way I see it, no AAD won't lock the reserve container closed, rendering the reserve unusable. The various issues with the Vigils (door openings causing firings) and CYPRESs (bad sensors causing firing), while not good things, didn't interfere in any way with the functioning of the container.

No AAD is far better than a locked reserve. The chances are probably small (although no one really knows, there isn't enough data), but I understand the manufacturers not being willing to have an AAD that has been demonstrated to prevent the use of the reserve, while allowing Vigils that have been demonstrated to fire at inappropriate times.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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No AAD is far better than a locked reserve. The chances are probably small (although no one really knows, there isn't enough data)



I'm not sure what kind and how much data you expect. For all I know, Argus has been on the market since 2006 (if I remember correctly), and to this day, there is no reported case, where it was a cause of a fatality (correct me if I'm wrong), and we have atleast dozen people who live thanks to this AAD (Aviacom on their page claims 24 saves, but last time their full page was online - with accident descriptions and stuff - it looked like almost half of them were two out situations, where AAD fired after/during main deployment - so not everyone may agree, that every of these activation was actually a "save" - everyone can judge for themselfs).
I'm not defending Aviacom product/actions here. For sure, there are doubts about reliability of Argus cutters. Should we expect a good investigation / explaination and possible improvements in cutter from Aviacom side ? Absolutely. Should H/C manufacturers deny jumpers the use of device that still has better chance of saving them, then killing ? In my opinion - No.


cheers,
Bart ;)

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Aviacom on their page claims 24 saves, but last time their full page was online - with accident descriptions and stuff -



And they claim Cypres is responsible for 34 fatalities, one of them a proven suicide. It makes me question their ability to determine fact from fiction.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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>They don't disallow using their rigs without an AAD, yet they banned
> Argus units, ergo, they seem to imply no AAD is better than Argus AAD . . .

That doesn't follow at all. Some manufacturers disapprove some reserves, and they don't say explicitly that you must use the container with a reserve. To take those two bits and conclude "well, they're implying that no reserve at all is better than XXX reserve" would be silly.

If you want to use an Argus with a given container, then use it. If you want to get it repacked with an Argus, find a rigger who will do it or repack it yourself. If you want to follow all the manufacturer's guidelines, then take it out. And if you then decide not to jump without an AAD, then don't jump. Your choice, not the manufacturer's.

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Aviacom on their page claims 24 saves, but last time their full page was online - with accident descriptions and stuff -



And they claim Cypres is responsible for 34 fatalities, one of them a proven suicide. It makes me question their ability to determine fact from fiction.

Sparky



Quite right! Except I would go further, that blatant bullshit propaganda, along with the everyone is conspiring against us claims, and latest unresponsiveness should give us great pause when it comes to trusting anything that comes from them.

Some will assume that I'm carrying the water for Airtek, blah blah, but that really isn't the case. When I bought my first AAD in '02 (after 22 years of not using one), I actually bought a used FXC Astra. I cancelled the order the next day when I was encouraged to completely research their incident history. I realized the Astra was incredibly "stupid/no smarts to filter out junk data" and the exposed on/off switch exposed it to another huge set of failure modes. I was attracted to the rugged connections (the Argus shares that positive point) and low cost. When I bought my second AAD last year, I really wanted to buy one of the alternatives. I thought it was great that there were 2 modern designs competing with the cypres. Hopefully Alti-2 (the mars design) will be sure to learn from the recent history of AAD troubles. That is what really seemed to mystify me - how could Vigil, for example, go to the trouble of designing a sophisticated device with software and all of that, and not do at least as good of a job at filtering out erroneous data? It seems so predictable that such data would be encountered, when the "target" competition does such filtering, I don't understand how design engineers could not have that as a primary goal to do at least as good of a job at that. Then we have cutter effectiveness, I'm sure the Argus designers had all the best intentions to make a cutter design that was an improvement over the guillotine, but I would find it hard to believe that their engineers would go that route again if given a do-over. So it seems we have a poor job at doing failure mode and effects analysis. Anyway, I wish that Argus fans would not assume that those criticizing it have ill-will for it. I don't benefit from their failure, and if the Vigil and Argus had a stellar history I'll bet that my latest Cypres would have cost less, or maybe I would have bought a Vigil or Argus instead.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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You're playing with fire buddy; is your life not worth the $1000 for a "safer" AAD?



I love this quote! Everything we jump is made by man. It's only a matter of time before the "safer" option is next on the heat block. No one, and nothing is immune.

To each their own. I must be really bored because I've read about 2k post on the argus ban. Just happy I own a rig that's not on the ban. I can say that, you know why? It's a free country!

I find it amuzing how heated people get based on a "mine is better that yours" mentality. Gotta love being human!
Brad

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