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dgermano

Argus Investigation - San Marcos

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With that said, this wasn't the first instance of the cutter not fully or completely cutting both sides of the loop. You make it sound like it was an isolated incident that ONE time a cutter gets jammed and container mfgrs are all over it.



No this was not the first incident, but this incident was what prompted the banning.

There is a service bulliten to replace cutters manufactured prior to a specific date that encompases those prior incidents.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Editing and deleting on here doesn’t have to be related to any tinfoil hat conspiracy.

Libel suits can happen as a result of post on internet message boards. The UK skydiving forums have been caught up with them before. They affect both the poster and the site owners. Editing, aside from just keeping things on track and within the rules, is likely just the site owners being justifiably litigation averse. Start making allegations on here about individual companies and you expose the owners of DZ.com to litigation. Don’t be surprised then if posts start disappearing.

I know that sucks from the point of view of getting to the bottom of things and yes it is a safety issue about which we’re talking… but that’s the world we live in.

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With that said, this wasn't the first instance of the cutter not fully or completely cutting both sides of the loop. You make it sound like it was an isolated incident that ONE time a cutter gets jammed and container mfgrs are all over it.



No this was not the first incident, but this incident was what prompted the banning.

There is a service bulliten to replace cutters manufactured prior to a specific date that encompases those prior incidents.



Just like the SB that says certian rigs that put the cutter in different positions on the loop, need to meet different standards/DOM's?

Sounds sketchy to me.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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the question should be has proper procedure been followed, example, toytoa had a problem with their gas pedals sticking or something, the cars were not immediatly pulled off the road, ford currently has a airbag problem, some were fixed, but the other 1million trucks will not be worked on until May, my argus was sent for 4 year check up, then about a month after hadto be sent overseas for a software update, i still jumped even if i couldn't turn it on ofr that day, for all rig manuf. to twist the faa law is wrong, there should be a way other than banning them that our local riggers can be sure the problem was an isolated one(metal ball) or not, i would feel safer if the rigger, rig maker, and the aad maker would play nice, figure which set up is proper( top or bottum) and lets us get back to playing, then this bashing energy can go to something useful like the ecomony!

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>toytoa had a problem with their gas pedals sticking or something, the cars were not
>immediatly pulled off the road

Right - because Toyota fixed the problem. Had Toyota said "there's no problem, it's all a big conspiracy" after fatalities from the problem, they may well have become unregisterable.

>for all rig manuf. to twist the faa law is wrong

No manufacturers are twisting any laws. Indeed, it is their responsibility to publish operating and maintenance guidelines that apply to their rigs.

>i would feel safer if the rigger, rig maker, and the aad maker would play nice

Agreed. If Aviacom decides to fix the problem, that could go a long way towards getting arguses back in the air.

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i would feel safer if the rigger, rig maker, and the aad maker would play nice, figure which set up is proper( top or bottum)



We as riggers, must play nice with the mfgrs rules of the gear, or we're breaking the law.

As for letting the local riggers try to agree on the best position on the cutter head, good luck with that, but even if every rigger in the country outside of a mfgr agreed on one way, its up to the mfgr, not the local rigger.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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so then do we know if the little metal ball is an isolated incident or is this a mass hystia of little metal balls out here in all these Argus?

Is there a way that a rigger can inspect during their repack to ensure this doesn't happen?( not bashing- i trust my rigger)

What i read of the faa law was questionable in the rewording ( i didn't stay at a holiday inn express nor do i play a lawyer on TV).

Im ok jumping without an aad ( i just limit the talent pool inthe group), but i'm definitly more comfordable with one, Since my argus was just serviced, just sent to the manufactur for software up date, and has a post 2007 cutter, how do i/we know
this device is safe to preform the duty it was purchased for?
and the pisser is that my rigger has done some of this work for free athough i tip well,
just seems like it was a lot of quick biased decisions made that is costing us money,

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how do i/we know this device is safe to preform the duty it was purchased for?



You pays your money, you takes your chances. You bought an Argus, an 'underdog' of sorts in the AAD world. If you want the reputation, get a Cypres.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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so then do we know if the little metal ball is an isolated incident or is this a mass hystia of little metal balls out here in all these Argus?

Is there a way that a rigger can inspect during their repack to ensure this doesn't happen?( not bashing- i trust my rigger)



Hey Duck here is some food for thought. The 'little ball' being discussed is pretty small. Small enough to fit into the cutter opening. This means that it's also small enough to fit through your reserve flap grommets. Here is a scenario to think about:

You've picked up your rig fresh and perfectly packed/inspected by your rigger. You're packing your rig on the packing floor 2 months later and their is a weight bag next to your rig you're not using. Another jumper comes and asks to use it but while picking it up, the bag rips sending little pieces of shot bouncing everywhere. It may be unlikely, but if one of those thousands of little pieces shot bounces under your top reserve flap, it could fall into the grommet on the side of your reserve pin. From there it could fall in next to the reserve closing loop grommet to grommet and into your Argus cutter.

Your Argus cutter has no plastic insert to keep foreign objects from getting in there and interfering like some of their competitors have. Something like that could happen when you're not around, it could happen with your weightbelt in your gear bag. According to Argus, this could render your AAD inoperable. According to previous experience, this could cause a premature reserve deployment at an inopportune time. You would have no way of knowing when it got in there, how it got in there, or how long it had been in there.

That is a fault in the design of the cutters they choose to use. It does not appear as though they have any interest in fixing these issues or improving their product either.

The existence of any little ball around an Argus AAD causes a risk of death to you, and the entire plane load of your friends you sit on.

These are the risks you take when you buy "El Cheapo" brand.
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Your Argus cutter has no plastic insert to keep foreign objects from getting in there and interfering like some of their competitors have.



Even with a plastic insert, a foreign object could still get wedged between the closing loop and the insert.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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Guys, don't know if you tried but that little ball on those pictures is small enough to even fit in the cutters from Vigil and Cypress.
I owned a Cypress, Vigil 2 and now Argus.

Do you guys know why Vigil for example put the plastic insert on there cutters?

Have you guys forgotten that Karel Goorts was one of the owners of Vigil in the past?

Let the people who are doing the investigation do there job.

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Your Argus cutter has no plastic insert to keep foreign objects from getting in there and interfering like some of their competitors have.



Even with a plastic insert, a foreign object could still get wedged between the closing loop and the insert.



With a V-shaped cutter AND a plastic insert, that shouldn't be a problem. The fact that it is for Argus, is one of their many design flaws.
108 way head down world record!!!
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Design flaws?...Says who??

With a V-shaped cutter it is even easier to block the loop if there would be foreign object.
You create a konus... just try it with a funnel.. put a rope thru it, then small rocks and try to pull the rope down thru the funnel.... see what happens.

every AAD has his problems if you check history.
Not that I defend Argus, I still think that Vigil and Cypress are also good AAD's. owned al of those brands.
My choise for the Argus was because how it works in swoopmode. Nor Vigil or the Cypress-speed have that and with the Cypress speed you have other disadvantages.
I read the document of Kirk Smith (also the part 'what's going on with Vigil and Cypress), Interesting!

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Design flaws?...Says who??



Apparently a large multitude of H/C manufacturers, dropzones, and nations have all independently concluded Argus cutters to be a flawed design based on its track record of inabilities to perform up to par and have also concluded that this is a danger to dropzone aircraft and other jumpers.

I don't disagree.

When you buy "El Cheapo" brand you take a serious risk. When the "El Cheapo" brand company goes belly up because it is plagued with reports of terrible performance, the educated purchaser with a paper weight has nobody to blame but them-self.

Not directed at you, but it's really silly to read about all these people who want to blame the rest of the world for their poor purchasing decisions.
108 way head down world record!!!
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I think everybody is forgetting that this is basically a social network and not a binding technical forum. Most of what is posted here is gossip and innuendo or the opinion of the poster. Very little is backed up by documented fact.
The moderators are acting on behalf of the site owners to accomplish certain goals one of which is to keep threads on topic. If they feel that a post was outside of the current topic and delete it their actions are answerable to the site owners not to the site members. If someone feels this not appropriate they are free to post elsewhere. There is no “right or wrong” “fair or unfair” the rules and policy of this site is strictly the right of the owners.

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Design flaws?...Says who??



Apparently a large multitude of H/C manufacturers, dropzones, and nations have all independently concluded Argus cutters to be a flawed design based on its track record of inabilities to perform up to par and have also concluded that this is a danger to dropzone aircraft and other jumpers.

I don't disagree.

When you buy "El Cheapo" brand you take a serious risk. When the "El Cheapo" brand company goes belly up because it is plagued with reports of terrible performance, the educated purchaser with a paper weight has nobody to blame but them-self.

Not directed at you, but it's really silly to read about all these people who want to blame the rest of the world for their poor purchasing decisions.



Sounds like someone sponsored by Cypres

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I've been sitting back and waiting and hoping the issue would get resolved. I have a javelyn with an argus aad installed so I guess I am considered grounded unless it is removed, which it is not at this time. My first concern is this: It is awfully hard for ONE aad manufacturer to defend itself against virtually ALL harness/container manufacturers. That's just a simple fact. Also, it does SEEM that the H/C manufacturers just all jumped on board together. When it started, it continued like the dominoe effect. Now bear in mind, I am certainly not saying it was without validity, because I don't know. But I will say this: I am disappointed in Sunpath (my manufacturer of choice) for not taking a look more seriously at the latest findings concerning the steel ball FOD and sending SOMETHING out to it's customers telling us to hang loose for a few days as this is being investigated by US. At least give us some hope that the issue could possibly be resolved as a result of this finding. Especially since the cutter is located below the pc at the bottom of the pack tray, like Altico (who has already lifted the ban for this reason). But all they are saying is they are waiting on Aviacom. To me, the steel ball finding (if it's accurate) should at least warrant a second look by the H/C manufacturers. I also want to be clear here that if the argus truly does have flaws in the design that could result in failure during a lifesaving situation then I CERTAINLY don't want it as part of my equipment. But, I for one, am just not sure that the ban is totally warranted on all rigs. But, at the same time, I'm also not sure that it isn't. I certainly hope Javelyn is able to conclude that the argus is perfectly safe in their rigs. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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It's also silly to think that just because YOU own a cypress that makes it automatically the BEST. I sure hope that doesn't bite you in the a-- someday along life's way. Don't misunderstand. I certainly think ALL of the AAD's could possibly be high quality devices. Unfortunately, the one that I chose to buy has had some issues that warrants investigation, and I totally understand that. But a total ban so quick? I'm just still not sure about that one.

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>I have a javelyn with an argus aad installed so I guess I am considered
>grounded unless it is removed.

Why do you think this? Is your DZO checking for Arguses and not letting you jump if you have one? If not, and if you are willing to take the risk with you and the people you jump with - why not jump it?

Sunpath has said that jumpers should remove the Argus from their rig before making any more jumps. However, the only place that statement has any real legal force is as guidance to a rigger repacking the reserve. Until then, provided your DZO doesn't mind, and you are willing to take the risk, you can jump it. (Probably not a good idea, of course.)

>Especially since the cutter is located below the pc at the bottom of the pack tray, like
>Altico (who has already lifted the ban for this reason).

They aren't that concerned about the cutter not cutting the loop during activation. They are more concerned that the loop will be partially cut, and the reserve will open later. This has already happened twice. It would be very, very bad for Sunpath if (for example) the reserve deployed in the door as a result, and a Javelin was implicated in a crash that caused a lot of damage and (potentially) injury and death. That's a pretty bad outcome, and that's why I think it's a bad idea to jump with an Argus until the problem with the cutters is resolved.

But again, that's your decision to make.

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Actually I am due a reserve repack (sorry I didn't state this before) so I assume I am grounded as I have heard of no rigger who will repack with argus installed. But why can't it just be mandated that we can leave them installed but cannot jump with them turned on, at least until something more definite is decided?

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>But why can't it just be mandated that we can leave them installed but cannot jump
>with them turned on, at least until something more definite is decided?

Because then skydivers would turn them on and could leave, say, Sunpath open to legal action from any resulting problems.

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Design flaws?...Says who??



Apparently a large multitude of H/C manufacturers, dropzones, and nations have all independently concluded Argus cutters to be a flawed design based on its track record of inabilities to perform up to par and have also concluded that this is a danger to dropzone aircraft and other jumpers.

I don't disagree.

When you buy "El Cheapo" brand you take a serious risk. When the "El Cheapo" brand company goes belly up because it is plagued with reports of terrible performance, the educated purchaser with a paper weight has nobody to blame but them-self.

Not directed at you, but it's really silly to read about all these people who want to blame the rest of the world for their poor purchasing decisions.




I remember that mirage had issued a SB because 4 cypres had fired and no reserve was activated. They forced me and a lot of other people to install the cutter on a place where other problems could occur. Well, a new problem did occur, a steel ball in the cutter that can trap the loop.
So the solution is to put back the cutter where it belonged (below the reserve, where the loop can go straight trough the cutter) and @#^{} (self censoring) the people who cram to big reserves in their container and riggers who do not do their work.

Am I happy with the response of Argus? No I am not, but I am not happy neither with the (re)action of a lot other people. You refer to other incidents, but do we know for sure that the Argus cutter was to blame or that other issues caused the problem (to big reserves ...)

The cheapo brand? Have you ever looked at the cypres 1 box? The toys of a child are of a better quality? Cheap plastic, be careful not to crack the cables when you (de)install it or break the box when you drop your gear at the ground.
BTW The scenario you describe can happen even with the plastic inserts.

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During that time I also owned a Mirage and also had to make that change. Even afterwards a new pilot-chute for the reserve because the other one was not forseen for this change, so the closing flap of the reserve would stick out...

The issue with the steel ball is possible with all brands of AAD's.
Is this a design flaw of the cutter or is this a design flaw of ALL rigs?Since the introduction of AAD's nothing much has changed on the design of the rigs, still the same grommets on closing flaps wich makes it possible to enter things, like that steel ball, in the reserve container.
So should we ban all brand of rigs now?

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It's also silly to think that just because YOU own a cypress that makes it automatically the BEST.



Who said that?

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But a total ban so quick? I'm just still not sure about that one.



Really? So would you rather wait for a fatality caused by a locked container? Then would it warrant a total ban?

You're playing with fire buddy; is your life not worth the $1000 for a "safer" AAD?

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The cheapo brand? Have you ever looked at the cypres 1 box? The toys of a child are of a better quality? Cheap plastic, be careful not to crack the cables when you (de)install it or break the box when you drop your gear at the ground.



The original and no longer produced Cypres 1 box couldn't have been that cheap, I can't think of any failures of the box design that resulted in international bannings. Either way, the company decided it wanted to make an improved product and they did, without having the entire skydiving community demanding it be improved. Are you suggesting it was cheap because with enough force someone could smash it?
I wish Argus would just address their shortcomings and fix their ongoing problems.

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BTW The scenario you describe can happen even with the plastic inserts.



I apologize for the poor artwork, but see attached
108 way head down world record!!!
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