Argus ban discussion (Was Argus Ban List)

[Coreefdiver 0]

EDIT: I moved this to it's own thread as the conversation has drifted away from the intent of the original thread. Please use this thread to discuss this issue and the other one for SB's and updates to the ban list.


Looks like they're claiming FOD* caused the failure according to the email I got this AM from Karel


*FOD: foriegn object damage. In this case a steel shot pellet.

Id post the rest, but am using my ifone.

Still doesnt excuse Aviacoms actions (or lack thereof)

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[IanHarrop 41]

FOD
http://tools.emailgarage.com/Pub/Asset.ashx?Id=23c77610-0dde-4a9f-98bc-64da7820cdf0&MessageId=509493423

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[rhys 0]

So all this Argus bashing for nothing...

When's that list going to be ammended do you think?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Still doesnt excuse Aviacoms actions (or lack thereof)

They said that they wished to investigate, and that the evidence was being witheld from them.

They we subsequnetly banned from a series of major rig manufactureres and parachute associations all based on the result an anomaly that was no fault of the unit itself, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Plenty of knee jerking going on though...

How do you suppose they did wrong, they were as in the dark about it as any of us until any sort of open investigation.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Coreefdiver 0]

how about a history of the same 'malf' happening and then factor in the way that Aviacom handled things.

"bans" = precaution based on history and then available facts

Aviacoms actions through the whole mess, going back to at least the Poland incident = unacceptable and unprofessional

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[PhreeZone 15]

Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sundevil777 98]

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FOD
http://tools.emailgarage.com/Pub/Asset.ashx?Id=23c77610-0dde-4a9f-98bc-64da7820cdf0&MessageId=509493423

There should have been some detail pic/close up of the steel shot ball

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[IanHarrop 41]

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Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.

Yup lead is soft, but close reading of the report says its a steel ball.
"This looks like a small steel ball, as used in ‘shot bags’"
"Picture 6:steel ball"

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[pchapman 277]

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*FOD: foriegn object damage. In this case a steel shot pellet.

Or nanothermite?

[PhreeZone 15]

I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust. Lead shot is typically used in shotbags around here. Lead is much more dense and does not rust.

More details on the FOD should be provided to help clarify the issue.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhys 0]

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Or nanothermite?

weak as weak can be...

get a life.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust. Lead shot is typically used in shotbags around here. Lead is much more dense and does not rust.

the word 'like' was there, i thought of lead shot too when i read that.

any small bearing could be transferred onto the packing mat from someones shoe or any of a number of possibilities, but that is moot.

The fact is that there was a metal foreign object in the cutter and that is possible with all cutters from all manufacturers.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[NovaTTT 2]

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I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos.

I'm not saying it is not a lead shot ball, but they labeled the image "steel" and in the report say it "looks like a small steel ball".

This is a very interesting report, but it is still lacking. I also would like to see close images of the shot ball as well as a determination if it is actually steel.

I'm also curious how this relates to the other cutter-related incidents.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[piisfish 136]

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Lead shot is very soft, I would have expected the cutter to just cut through it with no issue at all. I do not even see damage to the shot ball in these photos. To me that is a concern if the cutter was able to get damaged by one of the softer materials out there.

looks too shiny and perfect to be lead. Could be some plated heavy metal (like I have in some of my weights)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[pchapman 277]

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Quote

FOD
http://tools.emailgarage.com/Pub/Asset.ashx?Id=23c77610-0dde-4a9f-98bc-64da7820cdf0&MessageId=509493423

The .ashx file didn't open up for me except in Visual Studio... which showed its just a pdf. So for anyone with problems viewing it, just rename the extension.

[dgermano 0]

Start adding foreign objects to the equation and you have no basis to expect anything to happen like it should under circumstances. It could have just deflected the cutter and wasted energy the system would normally use to cut the loop. Who knows, but the real question is why was the steel shot in there?

[sundevil777 98]

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This is a very interesting report, but it is still lacking.

As a report it does not inspire confidence. Lousy, out of focus pictures, no detailed picture or investigation of what is of obvious interest (the ball),

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Unstable 8]

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I don't know of anyone that uses steel balls in shot bags. Steel rusts unless its stainless or treated and the last thing you want to be putting into a rig is rust dust.

I agree that using steel balls is not the best idea, but given the price of lead shoot, and the current restrictions many places put on lead shot (hunting waterfowl) ~ it would SEEM like a logical choice to use. I actually use stainless stell ball berrings ~ they don't rust, but the principle for using them instead of lead is clear.

=========Shaun ==========

[NovaTTT 2]

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There should have been some detail pic/close up of the steel shot ball

That's part of what is missing, but not the whole.

One wonders, for example, can the shot ball be exclusively traced back to the cutter head prior to the incident? or is it post-incident handling transfer?

Like many, I'll continue watching to see how this continues to unfold.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[irishrigger 32]

this is a strange one,i would also expect some marking on the little ball.unfortunatley there is no other pics of this forgeign object. i find it a bit strange,they have lots of pics of the cutter and other cutter and the damaged it caused to the cutter, and just one pic of this foreign object which is not very good picture.
also raises the question of how this object got caught up in the cutter in the first place and that it stayed there.

[Skybear 0]

How can an object like this enter the cutter? On a Cypres cutter there is a plastic insert that prevents anything from getting into the cutter. Is it the same on the Argus cutter? I suppose it is the same, because both are waterproof and therefore the cutter must be closed at the loop hole. And I can hardly imagine that a shot ball gets and stays in the loop hole just by coincidence. Did it maybe happen during the production and the shot ball was inside the cutter all the time? This report raises more questions than it answers.

[piisfish 136]

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How can an object like this enter the cutter? On a Cypres cutter there is a plastic insert that prevents anything from getting into the cutter. Is it the same on the Argus cutter? I suppose it is the same, because both are waterproof and therefore the cutter must be closed at the loop hole. And I can hardly imagine that a shot ball gets and stays in the loop hole just by coincidence. Did it maybe happen during the production and the shot ball was inside the cutter all the time? This report raises more questions than it answers.

imagine putting packing weights on the rig to let the packjob compress a bit before closing it.The Cypres temp pin (pointy both ends) ponches a small hole in teh packing weigt, and a ball escapes and fall, bad luck, just through the grommets, inside the cutter, and is blocked in there by the loop. Et Voila.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Divalent 106]

(Not to NovaTTT in particular)

There were indications in the original report of this incident that raised questions about the maintanence of this rig. IIRC, the loop was not siliconized, there was the suggestion that the packing log was (or would be) altered, and the rigger may have been refusing to cooperate with those investigating.

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

When installing the AAD or during the last repack it should be noticed by the rigger.
Espacially when you put the loop thru the opening of the cutter.
This in combination with the indications in the original report of this incident that raised questions about the maintanence of this rig.

They should remove the ban.

Here you can see the cutter of Argus:
http://www.chutingstar.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/900x900/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/r/argus-1-pin-cutter.jpg

[Skybear 0]

I know how the cutter looks like. This picture is of bad quality and it is taken from an angle that does not show what I was asking for. Is there a plastic sleeve inside the loop hole, which prevents objects from going into the cutter tube (or how you would call it in the english language)?

If you have a better picture I would appreciate to see it.

Another thing that is worth mentioning is, that Skysupplieseurope and Mr. Camfferman is closely related to Argus. In my opinion to close for an independent investigation.