Reserve Size

[billvon 2,396]

>And I don't want to stir the pot here but that is generally a reserve very
>similar in size to the main unless like you stated earlier a person is
>jumping a mega small main.

Ten years ago I would agree. However, nowadays most people tend to downsize VERY rapidly; the mains we see on people with 300 jumps _are_ the mega small mains of ten years ago.

The problem arises because people assume that reserves land like mains. And while some do land pretty well (like the Optimum) they still don't land like mains.

Let's take an example. A 175lb jumper with 490 jumps uses the Brian Germain guidelines (because he's "conservative") and is jumping a Crossfire2 135. Exit weight 195 lbs. What reserve should he jump?

A PD126 (actual size closer to 135 sq ft) is closest to this size. Per PD, the EXPERT limit is 176 lbs exit weight. Should a jumper with under 500 jumps be exceeding the expert limit on his reserve? Most people at 500 jumps are closer to intermediate canopy pilots.

Let's take a more reasonable canopy for this jumper - a PD176R. An exit weight of 195 puts this jumper at "advanced" on this canopy. That would be a more reasonable choice for a jumper at this level, even if it doesn't match his main size.

Now let's look at a serious error. He gets a Micro Raven 135 because one is for sale, cheap, and it's bigger and thus safer than the PD126R - and it's the same size as his main. (It's really not much bigger, but we'll ignore that for now.) He has a reserve ride, he comes in to land on a nearby road, flares his reserve like his main - and it collapses at 10 feet and drops him onto asphalt. He was unaware of how radically different the MR flies from a main.

The error people make is that they assume a low performance F111 7-cell flies like their main. It doesn't. In general it is a lot better to get a larger reserve so that they don't _need_ to learn to land an overloaded F-111 7 cell when they're landing in the parking lot of the local McDonald's.

[hukturn 0]

Mine is not either. PD143R and a Sabre 135.


My reasoning is go with what can get you to the ground safely. A main is a toy, the reserve saves your life.
After a reserve ride, you are normally low, probably going to land out and your adrenaline is red lining. One of the last things you want to do is have to set down your 1:1.8 F111 7 cell into a back yard pool party.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

FWIW I need no convincing that there are many people that shouldn't be jumping with reserves that they are not ready to fly. This same logic goes for downsizing to a main that they are not ready to fly.

Valid points were made by DrewEckhart as well as BillVon and I don't disagree with any of their points. Like I said earlier, jumpers need to do what is best for them based on their circumstances and experience. Hopefully they have the experience to make good decisions.

On a similar topic, IF a jumper can't land their reserve then they are jumping the wrong reserve. I don't care if it is a PDR 99 or a PDR 193. If they can't land it safely it is the wrong reserve. It doesn't matter if it is landed in someones back yard or the parking lot at McDonalds or the DZ. If they want to jump a PD143 with a Samuarai 105 hopefully they will be able to fit it in the reserve pack tray. IF they can't then maybe they should reconsider a plan of attack that will let them enjoy the sport in a safer manner.

People should know how to read and if the PD website says that a reseve should be used by an expert then IMO non-experts might want to reconsider before picking that option. Ultimately people will do what they want and hopefully they are working with a sound knowledge base that will derive reasonable solutions.

YES sometimes canopies dissimilar in size will be the best solution.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[billvon 2,396]

>If they want to jump a PD143 with a Samuarai 105 hopefully they will
>be able to fit it in the reserve pack tray. IF they can't then maybe they
>should reconsider a plan of attack that will let them enjoy the sport in a
>safer manner.

I agree, and would add two notes:

1) The availability of the Optimum 143 may allow him to get a 120/120 sized rig that will fit both well.

2) Some manufacturers now offer large reserve/small main options. The Mirage M1Z, for example, is sized for a 107 main and a 143 reserve.

[gearless_chris 1]

Maybe we should all jump crossbrace canopies. If we increase the main pack volume we can get a bigger container. My Comp Cobalt 150 is pretty snug in my Vector V347, sometime this year on a rainy day I'll pack the DZO's Velo 120 in it to see how it fits (I mean just pack it, not jump it, even though he says I should). I'd be real happy if I can keep this container into the 2:1 W/L sizes.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

If they want to jump a PD143 with a Samuarai 105 hopefully they will be able to fit it in the reserve pack tray.

Fliteline used to build Reflexes with a 150 reserve container and your choice of a 100, 120, or 135 main tray. I own two.

Sunrise says they'll build a Wings for any combination you like but "won't promise it will look good"

Jump Shack builds Racers in any combination.

You just can't have a Javelin or Vector like that.

[murps2000 86]

Sunrise says they'll build a Wings for any combination you like but "won't promise it will look good"
***

It might not look good, but I'll probably get one instead of a vector because of that. They wouldn't build me one that would accept larger than a pd126 with a velo103 main. In fact, they recommended I go with a pd106. They said I'd be fine. They said it lands great.

I agree with your take on using a larger reserve for all of the reasons you stated. It seems that many jumpers don't choose their reserve based on a worst case scenario. As has been stated before, common practice seems to be choosing based on having two out. In the age of freeflying and audible altimeter reliance this scenario may be common, but it is far from worst case. Assuming one gets past deployment, before which reserve size is irrelevant, a damaged or fouled reserve is about the worst I can think of. In such a situation any jumper would want as much square footage as possible, because they might not be landing %100 of it.

[champu 1]

Quote

The prevaling wisdom is that in case of a two out situation that two canopies that are similar in size will play better together than canopies that are not.

This one argument for getting a smaller reserve as your main size gets into the sub-100 range might not even be valid anymore (the relative likelihood of a two-out situation not in consideration.) I highly doubt that anything plays particularly well with a 90 sqft canopy loaded at 2:1.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

He has a reserve ride, he comes in to land on a nearby road, flares his reserve like his main - and it collapses at 10 feet and drops him onto asphalt.

I've seen one or two reserves stall when the jumper flared, once resulting in injury. Shouldn't an F-111 7 cell canopy be trimmed to not do that?

BTW, my main is 150, my reserve 200. I like a nice easy ride when it's my last one. That's with 2000 F-111 jumps. They just don't flare as well as a ZP 9 cell.

[gearless_chris 1]

I'm guessing that the stall point is going to vary depending on wingloading and arm length. Maybe the manufacturers could make special reserves for heavy loads, I'd bet they won't though. I've seen reserves stall with little control input loaded around 1.6, I'm sure the same reserve with .8 loading would be fine.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[superstu 0]

I had the unfortunate opportunity to be on Marianne Kramers last jump where she had a mal with her main AND her reserve, and watching her struggle with a 117 at 1.7 wingloading reserve really drove home the point of a bigger reserve for me. i firmly believe that if she had been under a bigger reserve in the WORST possible circumstance things might have been different in the end.

That being said my mindset is that i can't have a big enough reserve. right now i carry an Optimum 143 and velocities ranging from 84-96. i'm completely aware of a 2-out situation but i have accepted those risks to lessen the other risks associated with a smaller reserve.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[piratemike 0]

Quote

Newbie question.

Why are reserves so often smaller than mains?

The only reason that I have been able to determine for having a smaller reserve is that a smaller reserve makes for a better-looking more streamline rig.

Quote

I would think that if things have gone wrong, one would want the assurance of a larger, more docile canopy.

I am thinking that smaller canopies might deploy faster and that might be part of the reason, but am not sure.

different canopy designs will open faster than others, and most reserves have a construction that makes for a quick opening, but I'm pretty sure a smaller size won't nessarily make for a quicker opening.

My main is a 170, my reserve is a 181. I like it that way.

[billvon 2,396]

>Shouldn't an F-111 7 cell canopy be trimmed to not do that?

Some are, some aren't. The Micro Ravens are not designed for higher loadings, and thus often stall prematurely when overloaded. The Optimums are designed for higher loadings, and thus tend to land more like a heavily loaded mains. Thus they are less likely to stall when flown like a jumper's main.

(It should be pointed out that overloading ANY reserve is a bad idea.)

[riggerrob 558]

I suspect that your buddy was jumping a Swift,or Raven or Firelite or some other reserve designed back in the 1980s.
Back then, hardly anyone loaded their mains at one pound per square foot. Consequently, no one knew how to design a canopy that would flare gracefully when loaded at more than 1 to 1.
Also remember that the Raven 120 reserve was originally designed for Japanese girls. Then large stupid white men started buying Raven 120 reserves and wondering why they got hurt!
Duh!
Of course they flare like bag-locks when over-loaded!
Duh!

It was not until after zero-porosity fabric was introduced (1988 in Europe and 1989 in North America) - for main canopies - that designers started to understand how canopies flared when loaded more than 1 to 1. Consequently, reserves designed since 1990 (Amigo, PD series, R-Max, Smart, Techno, Tempo, etc.) tend to flare much better when heavily-loaded.

[Bolas 5]

Does planform play a factor in the stability of two out scenarios?

If you have a similar sized main and reserve, will they fly well together (brakes stowed on both) if the main is eliptical, crossbraced, or some other high performance wing?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes.
A rectangular reserve will be far more stable than a similar-sized, tapered main.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Yes.
A rectangular reserve will be far more stable than a similar-sized, tapered main.

Is there an increased likelihood of an eliptical/HP main and a similar sized reserve ending up in an unstable configuration such as a downplane during a two out than a more conservative main of similar size?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes,
... but more likely to result in an unstable down-plane that keeps trying to change into some other type of formation.
If your canopies are badly mis-matched, it will turn into a formation that no Canopy Formation Judge can name!

[ryoder 1,382]

Quote

I've seen one or two reserves stall when the jumper flared, once resulting in injury. Shouldn't an F-111 7 cell canopy be trimmed to not do that?

It is called geometry.

Mfgr designs a reserve to be loaded by little Japanese girl about 100 lbs and 4'10. Her little arms have the ability to pull the toggles down from the keepers X number of inches. Mfgr must put the stall point where she can reach a stall at the end of her control stroke.

Now big stupid white guy 6'4" and 210 pounds buys little reserve meant for little girl. His longer arms enable him to produce a control stroke of X + Y inches. When it comes time to use it, he is also too stupid to do a couple practice flares before landing, and learns the hard way that the canopy stalls when his hands reach his waist.

Would you have the mfgr design the control stroke for the big stupid guy, thereby condemning the little girl to eat dirt because her arms are too short to flare the canopy?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,396]

>Would you have the mfgr design the control stroke for the big stupid
>guy, thereby condemning the little girl to eat dirt because her arms are too
>short to flare the canopy?

To be fair, some reserves, like the Optimum 113, can land both the big stupid guy (me) and the tiny japanese girl safely. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, of course, but it is a consideration.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Yes,
... but more likely to result in an unstable down-plane that keeps trying to change into some other type of formation.
If your canopies are badly mis-matched, it will turn into a formation that no Canopy Formation Judge can name!

By mismatched in this case you are talking about planform differences, not major square footage differences.

I've unfortunately got first hand knowledge what two different sized canopies can do:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3014076#3014076

I was originally thinking that I wanted a smaller reserve to fly better with my main in case of a two out situation. However it seems that the likelihood of an elliptical main flying stable with a reserve even of similar size is fairly low.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[faulknerwn 36]

And some canopies - like a certain 120 reserve I jumped once - stalled by the time I had pulled the toggles to this 5'1 girl's shoulders!!! Yowsa!


W

[JohnMitchell 14]

Hi Wendy,

The incident I witnessed was a small woman who had the reserve stall on her at what I would call 3/4's brakes. I've seen a lot of F-111 7 cells land. This one looked wrong. She blamed herself, but I still blame the canopy trim.

[faulknerwn 36]

I've got probably 2200 jumps on Lightning 113's, and probably close another 2000 on Triathalon 99's. I'm pretty comfortable landing small 7-cells. PD's and Tempo's land great. My MicroRaven's are ok once I figured out how to land them (come in with a touch of speed.) The Dash-M 109 I sold after its first use - it stalled at my shoulders.

That sucked...

[billvon 2,396]

>The incident I witnessed was a small woman who had the reserve stall
>on her at what I would call 3/4's brakes.

In my experience, that's where Micro Ravens stall when flown straight in. (Heavier loadings cause earlier stalls.) So again I think it depends a lot on the canopy.