skydyvr 0 #101 November 25, 2003 Quotethats why i had to vote anti.. hope it makes you feel better... How you feel about the US is of little concern to me, but the fact that you aren't afraid to summarize and express your opinion openly gets my respect. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #102 November 25, 2003 QuoteO.K.,this is way to P.C. for me.This crap of your either for us or against us is BS!I believe stealing from our children's futures is very wrong!It,s "We the People",not just some of the people(rich republicans,senators etc. profiting from the suffering of others.Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!(lol) You'd better change your attitude mister, and quick! You don't want a special late night "visit" from my rebubbalican superiors, do you? . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #103 November 25, 2003 QuoteQuoteYou're a Democrat, aren't you? Actually I am a conservative, but nobody on these forums will ever believe that Where do you draw the centerline? never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cuchulinn 0 #104 November 25, 2003 Quotesorry, seems I am the 1st one to vote anti... not against everything, but against the actual government, the Sheriff-of-the-world attitude... Beautiful country, with some beautiful people. But (too often) with a destructive (and innocent) attitude That's what makes the US so wonderful, you can express your opionions openly and honestly. To that note, my opinion is... please let me know the closest international airport to you and I will provide you with the directions to it, a moving company to come and pick up your stuff and the closest DZ (and your first jump ticket) in what ever new country you choose to live! Just my very humble (21 year military vet) opinion. Blue skies SMA#18 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #105 November 25, 2003 QuoteQuotesorry, seems I am the 1st one to vote anti... not against everything, but against the actual government, the Sheriff-of-the-world attitude... Beautiful country, with some beautiful people. But (too often) with a destructive (and innocent) attitude That's what makes the US so wonderful, you can express your opionions openly and honestly. To that note, my opinion is... please let me know the closest international airport to you and I will provide you with the directions to it, a moving company to come and pick up your stuff and the closest DZ (and your first jump ticket) in what ever new country you choose to live! Just my very humble (21 year military vet) opinion. Blue skies "Lazyfrog" lives in Europe and I am sure he is happy about that. By the way, if "the US so wonderful, you can express your opionions openly and honestly" then it is you who is "anti-american" by telling people to leave the country who do not agree with the current Government.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #106 November 25, 2003 Ditto. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ifrinn 0 #107 November 25, 2003 I kinda disagree with the question, because I consider myself anti-bush but defiantly not anti-american. I see a huge difference here! A normal person can not be against all the people and culture of a country, however you can disagree with the government in charge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #108 November 25, 2003 QuoteHow you feel about the US is of little concern to me, but the fact that you aren't afraid to summarize and express your opinion openly gets my respect. Then you has the same respect from me Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #109 November 25, 2003 QuoteI consider myself anti-bush but defiantly not anti-american. I see a huge difference here! I agree, since I said the same thing earlier in this thread... but I find it ironic that people who ask the pro/anti-American question don't seem to want to hear the answers many people have to give. They want to hear the "USA all the way, baby" answers, but those who try to distinguish between people and government are told off or told to go overseas. If there is so much freedom, where is the freedom for debate? Or is the word "freedom" just being used to demand total unthinking allegiance to every top-down decision? Total allegiance is certainly not why I love the USA or what makes me proud to be an American. Things that make me proud to be an American are: 1. The incredibly quality and variety of skydiving talent in the USA 2. The spirit of innovation in building things (both within and outside the skydiving world) 3. The supposed ability to be who you are and say what you want to in a public forum (whether that's a hard-line libertarian or a gay transvestite Green Party campaigner) 4. All the spectacular drop zones! There is no item on my list that involves purging people from the country who don't agree with you or everything the government does. There is no item that involves loving the government or being required to love the government. So, is anyone now going to tell me that because the things I love about America aren't the things they love, I should renounce my citizenship? -TIt's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #110 November 25, 2003 QuoteI agree, since I said the same thing earlier in this thread... but I find it ironic that people who ask the pro/anti-American question don't seem to want to hear the answers many people have to give. Well, I put up the poll and it is not mandatory to vote. If you do not like the choices, then do not vote! Choose the one that more closely describes you and your views. It's obvious that there are people that are anti-American, but they love our country. Then why vote at all or vote anti-American? Your so-called freedom fighters live pretty well here in the good 'ol US of A. But that doesn't stop them from killing people. It also doesn't stop people from their "flag burning" protests. Say what you want, but if you want to demonstrate your dislike around our DZ, me and my colleagues would like to debate with you in our own special way. Please notify us so that we can make accommodations. Here in America we have the freedom to criticize our government. Does anyone listen in a public forum for skydiving? If anything it has become a forum for commiseration and argument. They say it's your right to do so. No, it's not; it's a privilege. I did not vote for Bush since I worked for the McCain campaign. He wasn't my choice, so I chose not to vote. Do I support the president? Hell, yeah! The world has changed since 11 Sept 2001. Being in the financial services I lost some friends there. Imagine if 3,000 people lost their lives in one day; in your country. So, when it comes to major states that sponsor terrorism, there will always be too much debate followed by too little resolve. We'll always be kissing ass at the UN. Our nation has the resources, but we do not have the killer instinct. We took the gloves off and now we are criticized. Sometimes the foolishness of our countries affairs gets too me. For too many years we did nothing, dating back to the Clinton era and even Bush41. After the Soviet Union died, we just stood around gloating over the corpse and watching our stock portfolios. We've had poor leadership that made bad decisions. Now the terrorist have brought their war to our doorstep, and we seem incapable of stopping them. In the past we tried to put on a good show in response, but we had no plan to preempt it. That wasn't enough. So, based on those clever explanations by some of our friends, those are all good reasons to be pro-American. Freedom isn't free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #111 November 25, 2003 QuoteWell, I put up the poll and it is not mandatory to vote. If you do not like the choices, then do not vote! Choose the one that more closely describes you and your views. Okay--absolutely. Your choices were "Pro-American" or "Anti-American". However, since you did not specify which "American" you meant (People? Government? Policy? Skydiving?) the door was open to clarify and make the distinction. If you were asking a more specific question, you could have worded it to remove any doubt that, for example, being "Pro-American" means being "Pro-American government." You did not. Hence, the commentary around the voting. QuoteIt's obvious that there are people that are anti-American, but they love our country. Then why vote at all or vote anti-American? Because you put up a poll with two choices. Did you offer two choices hoping that everyone would only pick one? Then why make it a poll? Why not just make it a statement? These things are interesting because people disagree, just as democracy works because it is supposed to incorporate multiple points of view. QuoteSay what you want, but if you want to demonstrate your dislike around our DZ, me and my colleagues would like to debate with you in our own special way. Please notify us so that we can make accommodations. I doubt anyone here was planning on showing up at your DZ for a flag-burning. However, the forums are not your DZ. It's not cool to use intimidating language towards people with different viewpoints, especially when the question (which you wrote) was set up to offer more than one choice. QuoteThe world has changed since 11 Sept 2001. Being in the financial services I lost some friends there. Imagine if 3,000 people lost their lives in one day; in your country. I don't have to imagine it: I'm an American, I was in the United States on September 11, and I too lost people in the WTC. But to me, even the anger and rage and helplessness I felt on that day does not justify some of the ways in which the current government reacted. I live and work most of the year overseas, and I have seen firsthand the effect the "War on Terror" is having on people peripheral to the battle. I have witnessed the US military training and arming local militias in Africa to "find Al Qaeda operatives", a tactic that rarely works. These US-issued weapons are mostly used to consolidate the power of brutal warlords outside of US control. It's never as simple as revving up a "killer instinct" and then getting the bad guys. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. QuoteFreedom isn't free. I couldn't agree more. I think we just differ on the price. I am not willing to support the killing of civilians in faraway places, the arming and training of warlords who starve and torture their own people, and the sacrifice of civil liberties in one of the only truly free countries on earth in exchange for the idea that Americans will somehow be safer as a result. Maybe the price of freedom is acknowledging that we live in an interdependent world and can never be safe or successful acting, as we have been, basically alone. Blue skies, -TIt's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ifrinn 0 #112 November 25, 2003 I dont want to critise your point, true the USA is the only country (& Britain, and some others like Poland)doing something against the terrorism. However there is a statement people sometimes should consider. "Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #113 November 25, 2003 Quote"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity" It's a nice turn of phrase... although sometimes fighting is a very necessary thing. Just not always, and not always for "peace". -TIt's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #114 November 25, 2003 >The world has changed since 11 Sept 2001. The world hasn't changed one bit; our perception of it has. Terrorists tried to blow up the WTC in 1995 and came close to succeeding. If they had been successful, would the world have changed then? Nope. 1996 would still have come. Talk to an Israeli who has lived in fear of being blown to bits since the 1960's. Did the world change for him on Sept 11, 2001? Not one bit. If anything, he would think "well, now people in the US know what it's like to live here." What _is_ very different is that we are now afraid, and are reacting out of fear. That's not a bad thing; fear is a useful emotion because it causes us to protect ourselves. Sometimes those reactions are a good thing; the TSA, although it doesn't work well yet, is a good idea. Sometimes they're a bad thing; a secret prison camp to interrogate suspected terrorists and hold them forever without trial is a bad idea. For a long time we thought that things happening "over there" didn't really affect us. Now we know they can. I hope this will lead to the people of the US taking a wider view of the world they live in, and lead them to the realization that our actions in the world can have real, tangible results - and can sometimes come back and bite us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cuchulinn 0 #115 November 25, 2003 I'm allowed my opinion also... and my opinion was simply (and actually to no one in particular although it was in repsonse to the anti-america vote) if you live here and do not like it here you can always leave and if you need help doing so I'd be more than happy to provide any info or help I can. In his case he lives in Europe, his thread should have asked European or anti-european SMA#18 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekendwonder 0 #116 November 25, 2003 She ain't perfect, but consider the alternatives.. Blues, Bob Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #117 November 25, 2003 QuoteShe ain't perfect, but consider the alternatives.. I have... and the alternatives I like include a different government. Isn't it great that we are empowered to participate in hiring and firing our own government? I'm all about the 2004 search for someone else to be Pres. It may not happen, but then the possibility of me not getting all new gear for Christmas doesn't stop me from fantasizing about it. Blue skies--TIt's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #118 November 26, 2003 QuoteQuote Say what you want, but if you want to demonstrate your dislike around our DZ, me and my colleagues would like to debate with you in our own special way. Please notify us so that we can make accommodations. Let me have this straight... You are telling us that if someone shows a diferent opinion than you, you will call your buddies and beat him up? I have some questions for you. 1.- i don´t agree with burning flags (or burning anything) but since you are expressing your point of views and even using intimidatory language in public why cannot anyone else do it even if it is in a diferent way? 2.- Is that the freedom you are so proud? 3.- How many friends would you need to "help understand" let´s say a 174cm 75 Kg guy? 4.- why don´t you do it yourself? even if it means you may end up hurt. 5.- Even better, why don´t you learn how to dialogue. and if it doesn´t work just let it be? Sorry i am flaming you, don´t take it personal because i don´t even know you, it is just that Violence gets no one anywhere, and the lenguage you used was hardly apropiate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #119 November 26, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote Say what you want, but if you want to demonstrate your dislike around our DZ, me and my colleagues would like to debate with you in our own special way. Please notify us so that we can make accommodations. Let me have this straight... You are telling us that if someone shows a diferent opinion than you, you will call your buddies and beat him up? I have some questions for you. 1.- i don´t agree with burning flags (or burning anything) but since you are expressing your point of views and even using intimidatory language in public why cannot anyone else do it even if it is in a diferent way? 2.- Is that the freedom you are so proud? 3.- How many friends would you need to "help understand" let´s say a 174cm 75 Kg guy? 4.- why don´t you do it yourself? even if it means you may end up hurt. 5.- Even better, why don´t you learn how to dialogue. and if it doesn´t work just let it be? Sorry i am flaming you, don´t take it personal because i don´t even know you, it is just that Violence gets no one anywhere, and the lenguage you used was hardly apropiate. Alright then - Shark, Get a rope!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
park1231 0 #120 November 26, 2003 PRO-American ANTI-U.N. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #121 November 26, 2003 QuoteAlright then - Shark, Get a rope! Negative! Talk is cheap. Rather than resort to name calling, and short of having my dad beat up his dad I sent him a PM. It's better that way than hiding behind a keyboard 10,000 miles away. He's entitled to his opinion, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
