Argus 'Pin Check'

[Bodhisattva420 0]

I don't really know shit about rigging but I have been reading some of the incident reports mentioned in the Argus service bulletins and have been wondering if this whole Argus ban is going a little too far. None of the containers were actually locked shut were they? And doesn't the Argus's digital display indicate if the unit has fired? Couldn't the dangers related to partially cut closing loops be solved then by a pin check before boarding the plane? I know that's probably not a very good long term solution, but would that not be safer than just removing your AAD and jumping with out one?

[MrHixxx 0]

Ultimately, I would rather have it, than not have it. If you have missed your hard deck by 900 ft. and the unit fires and doesn't cut, it is only 3-4 seconds before you would have had to extract the rip cord to not pound in. Chances are in that scenario, you are unconscious or unfit to do so if you got that low, so I would rather have it and have a chance.

Now keep in mind that several people have pounded in with perfectly functioning AADs by other manufacturers. Why? There p/c is in the burble too long, instability etc... However, since it is a back up device. I would rather have something than nothing. You bust altitude in a sport where you have signed a waiver and thrown your life to the wind of your own will, then you are a statistic already. If you are lucky enough that the circumstances of your own folly in creating the situation where you are too low by lack of awareness, or maybe jumping with the wrong people (collision), or in the wrong condition (medical) your AAD works, well then it was your day to live, because with nothing you definitely auger in. The unit has saved 24 people. If the company continues to exist it will probably save more. You could argue that the RSL has killed with entanglements, but it has saved far more.

With that said, there is a greater risk that someone will die this year because their AAD was removed from their rig because of a SB and not replaced, than their will ever be because the AAD malfunctioned. Furthermore, it is possible that someone has already gone in with a properly functioning AAD. It is not a guarantee, but a chance that is saves you whether it works perfectly or not...

So, as an instructor and a rigger. I would rather that person had that chance.

If the company survives they may update their cutter with a single point wedge style cutter which would be more effective for a six flap rig, I would personally pay for the upgrade. That beats tossing a 1000.00 unit in the trash. The electronics in the unit don't seem to have had the freshman shielding problems of the other 2 mfgs. that they had to fix. So certainly, there is refined engineering in the product.

In the meantime, as a rigger on a six flap rig, I would make sure the grommets are stacked above the cutter and the tension is good on the closing loop. Further, I would take solace in the fact that my customer has something to potentially save their butt if they can't do it themselves.

my two cents...

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[skebenga 2]

Fine points there MrHixxx! Right now, many folks I know are smelling a rat regarding the predicament Argus finds itself in...!Just sucks for the consumers. How dodgy are the incident reports surrounding the Argus 'problems'?! When you read of the plethora of past issues experienced by the competition, it sure looks like the competition got away with murder- excuse the pun!

[mr2mk1g 10]

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None of the containers were actually locked shut were they?

I believe that is indeed one of the allegations and a potiential failure mode.

[Unstable 8]

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Fine points there MrHixxx! Right now, many folks I know are smelling a rat regarding the predicament Argus finds itself in...!Just sucks for the consumers. How dodgy are the incident reports surrounding the Argus 'problems'?! When you read of the plethora of past issues experienced by the competition, it sure looks like the competition got away with murder- excuse the pun!

As a rigger and Argus's (Argii, Arguses, ???) owner, I have really been diving into all the research I can into this. I'm not convinced that there is a conspiracy, but I do believe that there is a true principal that one is usually harder on the competition than one is with themselves.

=========Shaun ==========

[tazsz 0]

But why does the owner Jumps a Cypress?

[url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=Goorts;

[Zymurdoo 0]

Quote

None of the containers were actually locked shut were they? And doesn't the Argus's digital display indicate if the unit has fired? Couldn't the dangers related to partially cut closing loops be solved then by a pin check before boarding the plane? I know that's probably not a very good long term solution, but would that not be safer than just removing your AAD and jumping with out one?

It is my understanding that in some containers, the cutter is placed on top of the pilot chute/closing flaps. In this instance if the cutter is pinching the loop the container is effectively locked closed and will not open, even if you pull the reserve ripcord. This is the big issue. If your container has the cutter located below the reserve pilot chute and closing flaps, the you could still manually open your reserve (altitude permitting).

On another note here is a link to Argus and their response to the ban;
http://www.argus-aad.com/

Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

[billvon 2,396]

>With that said, there is a greater risk that someone will die this year
>because their AAD was removed from their rig because of a SB and not
>replaced, than their will ever be because the AAD malfunctioned.

I would tend to agree. However, there is also something to be said for the idea that it is better to be put at mortal peril by your own mistake than by someone else's. I can control the risks I take on a skydive; I can't control the risks posed by a locked-closed container. (Other than taking any AAD out of my rig.)

[riggerpaul 1]

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>With that said, there is a greater risk that someone will die this year
>because their AAD was removed from their rig because of a SB and not
>replaced, than their will ever be because the AAD malfunctioned.

I would tend to agree. However, there is also something to be said for the idea that it is better to be put at mortal peril by your own mistake than by someone else's. I can control the risks I take on a skydive; I can't control the risks posed by a locked-closed container. (Other than taking any AAD out of my rig.)

That's fine for you.

But we have a lot of people who seem to rely on their AADs too much, while at the same time, denying that they do.

If the folks in that situation jump without one, then we are open to the worst possible scenario - people who really do need an AAD jumping without it.

It would be different if we could trust that those folks who really need them would not jump without it.

And, of course, we must balance this against the chance that such a person would be sufficiently inattentive as to not notice that their AAD had fired, but the container stayed closed (you know, like the Texas scenario).

The whole thing worries me.

[NovaTTT 1]

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But why does the owner Jumps a Cypress?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=Goorts;

O SHIT!!!!

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Zymurdoo,

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If your container has the cutter located below the reserve pilot chute and closing flaps, the you could still manually open your reserve (altitude permitting).

You're missing one scenario: If the cutter is below the pilot chute but above the reserve free bag then pulling the ripcord ( considering a cutter that has 'locked' onto the Locking Loop ) will only get the pilot chute into the air. The free bag will still be trapped.

I hope this helps explain this somewhat better,

JerryBaumchen

[terminalkiwi 0]

look at the date he registered 2004 there was no argus at that time and quite likely he never updated his profile as many of us don't

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

It is my understanding that in some containers, the cutter is placed on top of the pilot chute/closing flaps. In this instance if the cutter is pinching the loop the container is effectively locked closed and will not open, even if you pull the reserve ripcord. This is the big issue. If your container has the cutter located below the reserve pilot chute and closing flaps, the you could still manually open your reserve (altitude permitting).

I wouldn't put money on that.

The only way I could see a defective cutter not interfering with the reserve coming out is if it was placed under the free bag, on the bottom of the packtray. Even if it pinches the loop, the PC, flaps and freebag are free to deploy.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Zymurdoo 0]

***

This is what I had in mind but I forgot those key items enclosed within the reserve pack tray. (Tired from a long night at work)

Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Quote

It is my understanding that in some containers, the cutter is placed on top of the pilot chute/closing flaps. In this instance if the cutter is pinching the loop the container is effectively locked closed and will not open, even if you pull the reserve ripcord. This is the big issue. If your container has the cutter located below the reserve pilot chute and closing flaps, the you could still manually open your reserve (altitude permitting).

I wouldn't put money on that.

The only way I could see a defective cutter not interfering with the reserve coming out is if it was placed under the free bag, on the bottom of the packtray. Even if it pinches the loop, the PC, flaps and freebag are free to deploy.

On the other hand, while reserve pilot chute springs might not be strong enough to pull a stuck loop out of a cutter, I wonder if a pilot chute could.

(But then, you'd be pretty low, and the hesitation alone might get you.)

Has anyone even measured to force to pull the stuck loop out of a jammed cutter?

[e.a.hernandez 0]

"Couldn't the dangers related to partially cut closing loops be solved then by a pin check before boarding the plane"

Maybe I am misunderstanding but how would a pin check allow you to notice a partially cut loop? Checking the display of the unit should show the unit fired but since the loop is inside the container how can checking the pin help determine so...?

[dragon2 0]

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"Couldn't the dangers related to partially cut closing loops be solved then by a pin check before boarding the plane"

Maybe I am misunderstanding but how would a pin check allow you to notice a partially cut loop? Checking the display of the unit should show the unit fired but since the loop is inside the container how can checking the pin help determine so...?

If the unit says it fired and the reserve is stil closed, you have 3 scenarios:
1) the unit malfunctions, it hasn't fired but has a cutter problem
2) the unit fired but the loop wasn't through the cutter
3) the unit fired and your reserve is now hanging on by a few threads or has been locked

In either of these cases, would you jump the rig?
So, if checking the display of the unit shows something wrong, does it matter what the underlying cause is, at that time? It should go straight to a rigger, either way.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Maybe I am misunderstanding but how would a pin check allow you to notice a partially cut loop? Checking the display of the unit should show the unit fired but since the loop is inside the container how can checking the pin help determine so...?

I would look for a couple indicators like the PC not fully compressed (hard to explain the look), the grommets not stacked and whatnot... but even then, it could be a number of things and none of them mean that the AAD has fired.

Hell, any of those could be just sloppy rigging.


The best preventative measure is to do a damn gear check before you put it on. I check my gear after I pack it, and again before I put it on. It only takes a minute but the life you save could be your friends!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[e.a.hernandez 0]

I agree 100% with you. However...that's if you check the unit display before the jump (I do check it before each jump and agree with your three cases). If you only check the pin...how would that show the AAD partially cut the loop (what the OP posted)? There are a bunch of skydivers out there that only check the unit when they first turn it on and then forget about it (which I think is wrong).

I think part of the assumption of the OP is that the container does not stay completetly shut after the loop is partially cut...but what if it stays shut.

P.S. I own an Argus (bought it new in 2009)

[e.a.hernandez 0]

+1

[dragon2 0]

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I agree 100% with you. However...that's if you check the unit display before the jump (I do check it before each jump and agree with your three cases). If you only check the pin...how would that show the AAD partially cut the loop (what the OP posted)?

A pin check encompasses way more than "just" checking the reserve pin. It definitely includes checking the AAD (although that may have to be done by the jumper himself in case of a back-mounted display).
So, in my view, a pin check would show a AAD problem like that, yes.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi paul,

Quote

Has anyone even measured to force to pull the stuck loop out of a jammed cutter?

Having spent a good portion of my other life involved in failure analysis, I doubt that any two out of 100 jams will have the same force to pull the stuck loop out.

Now when I say 'the same force' I mean within 3-5 lbs of force differential.

I would think that any given stuck loop would be unique unto itself.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS)

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(But then, you'd be pretty low, and the hesitation alone might get you.)

IMO this is the real problem.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Hi paul,

Quote

Has anyone even measured to force to pull the stuck loop out of a jammed cutter?

Having spent a good portion of my other life involved in failure analysis, I doubt that any two out of 100 jams will have the same force to pull the stuck loop out.

Now when I say 'the same force' I mean within 3-5 lbs of force differential.

I would think that any given stuck loop would be unique unto itself.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS)

Quote

(But then, you'd be pretty low, and the hesitation alone might get you.)

IMO this is the real problem.

Jerry, I am happy to defer to your experience and wisdom on this.

I will no longer wonder if the pilot chute could pull the freebag free of a jammed cutter.

Thanks for speaking up.

[saly 0]

The general consensus is just the Argus cutter is the problem.

There is a quick fix and if Aviacom's oposition were true gentlemen they would facilitate in the best interests of safety. Many people will for the near future will be jumping without AAD's till there is a fix or they replace with another brand.

Fit the Argus connector to one of the opposition's cutters. But this will never happen.

---------------------------------------------
If you don't have wings you will never fly

[jurgencamps 0]

Quote

Quote

If you only check the pin...how would that show the AAD partially cut the loop (what the OP posted)?

A pin check encompasses way more than "just" checking the reserve pin. It definitely includes checking the AAD (although that may have to be done by the jumper himself in case of a back-mounted display).
So, in my view, a pin check would show a AAD problem like that, yes.

Lot's of people say pin check when they mean gear check.