Karnage Krew

[DARK 0]

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I post on DZ.com very rarely but wanted to jump in on this thread. I originally started KarnageKrew with Gary in 2006. In those days we didn’t have a registered company, we were just 2 guys trying to help people out in our spare time. We set out not to do this for huge financial gain but with a passion to help people in the sport. Our key values were to provide fantastic customer service and to operate ethically throughout. And we did.

In this time, both customers and the dealers we worked with will testify that we went above and beyond the cause with this – our customers were delighted, and as were the dealers that we were working with. Around 2008 however, I was finding that other commitments were becoming too much and I no longer had the time to commit to KK, but Gary pursued his dream and worked tirelessly – often 20 hours a day; so he was able to deal with all customer queries/ orders/ liaising with dealers etc. I’d never met anyone who had that level of commitment if I’m perfectly honest and I used to wonder how on earth he managed to do it.

In 2009, things were going well enough for him to turn it into a real business and, I believe with the help of a small private investor he setup Kkrew PTY LTD registered in NSW. He asked me on occasion to come back in, but having neither the time nor money available, I was unable to accept.

It appears things have taken a fairly desperate turn in recent months from reading these threads, and I am both saddened and disappointed – for those of you who appear to have lost money, and partly for something I put passion and energy into initially to end up in this way.

I appreciate that my words will provide little comfort or resolution to those of you who have suffered as a result of this, and, having not heard from Gary in months, I am unable to speculate on what has occurred or indeed any reasons for this and, I write not by way of defence, but I felt it was important to contribute.

+1 I think anyone who thinks he set out to do this to people is not thinking straight and thats fair enough as they are out of a lot of money

when I dealt with gary I got exactly what I was promised and I know for a fact he made literally no profit on the sale of my rig and I dont know him personally and lived thousands of miles away. he gave me a better deal then the dz I worked at could give me.

Obviously he has fucked up big time and im guessing has potentially broken the law and people are understandably upset but I think a bit of perspective is fair, just becasue someone gets into business trouble does not automatically make them a terrible person it makes them a bad business person.

[davelepka 4]

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anyone who thinks he set out to do this to people is not thinking straight

just becasue someone gets into business trouble does not automatically make them a terrible person it makes them a bad business person.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Gary woke up years ago and came up with a scam to steal money from people. As mis-guided as it might have been, everyone knows that his efforts up to a point were in good faith and for the love of the sport.

However, the day you accept a customers payment for a rig that you don't order, and you use that money for other purposes, it's over. Moving forward with any business besides repaying that first customer is when he became a bad person.

It seems that trading while insovlent in Aus is a crime. I'm from the US where trading while insolvent seems to be a way of life in the business community, but even I recognize that as soon as he didn't complete one order, that was his impossible to ignore sign that it was time to shut down and take a hard look at the viability of the business.

Instead, he followed one bad order with another, and lined up a string of jumpers across the globe who are out significant amounts of money, and now Gary and their cash are nowhere to be found.

He might have started out as a 'good guy', but as of now, he lost the right to that title.

[NWFlyer 2]

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when I dealt with gary I got exactly what I was promised and I know for a fact he made literally no profit on the sale of my rig and I dont know him personally and lived thousands of miles away. he gave me a better deal then the dz I worked at could give me.

See, that's the thing. You can't run a sustainable business if you continue making deals like that. I've heard many many people who got deals that were "too good to be true" with Gary ... eventually that house of cards is going to topple; seems that it has.

It reminds me of the first web bubble. I remember ordering a single pint of Ben & Jerry's from a company called kozmo.com. The pint was priced the same as a convenience store, there was no minimum amount required to buy for delivery, and they brought it to my house with no delivery fees. I remember thinking "This business is only doing this because they have a ridiculous amount of venture capital to play with; this isn't profitable and this business is going to go tits up before too long, but fuck if I'm not going to enjoy it until it does."

But my risk in engaging with what was clearly an unsustainable business like kozmo.com was very low. My risk in engaging in a company like Gary's is very high, as many have found out here.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DARK 0]

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when I dealt with gary I got exactly what I was promised and I know for a fact he made literally no profit on the sale of my rig and I dont know him personally and lived thousands of miles away. he gave me a better deal then the dz I worked at could give me.

See, that's the thing. You can't run a sustainable business if you continue making deals like that. I've heard many many people who got deals that were "too good to be true" with Gary ... eventually that house of cards is going to topple; seems that it has.

yep absolutely it does seem that he was a terrible business man(my dealings with him were almost exactly two years ago so I think it was still when he was only it to help out the community)

I imagine a big part of the problem was people expected the same great deals when he decided to turn it into a business and that sucked the profit out of it for him.

I dont expect the people who got ripped off to act rationally they are entitled to deal with the problem and vent their anger however they want it just seems that there are a few people in this thread who havn't been affected but are still calling for the guy to be lynched

personally I hope everyone gets either their money or their product(which sounds unlikely at this stage) but either way, unless he has bolted with pockets full of cash and is trying to hide out until everything goes away, I dont think he deserves prison necessarily. I also think you can do some serious amount of damage to someone with this much public ridicule especially coming from a group of people he apparently tried so hard to help initially

I am not defending his actions and I am not saying he should be feeling sorry for himself I just think a bit of perspective that this is a person that started out with the best intention that is being talked about and some of the things that people are saying could easily drive someone to do something they will regret.

[Rigless 0]

I bet there wouldn't be such "tar & feathering" if he actually didn't run off for hiding somewhere and instead would be communicating with the people that he did not deliver to and try to resolve this matter..

But this ain't happenin is it? So it's kinda hard to look at it from any other angles other than bad guy / criminal..

"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

[Snowwhite 0]

again, if you sent money to his girlfriend, you do have a way of tracking her.

My guess is he owed her money too, and was using other peoples money to make good on the more pressing debt.

If you put money in HER account SHE owes you money. She may have a job, a home, and a way of paying you back. With the information from her bank, you have something to follow through on.

skydiveTaylorville.org
[email protected]

[Scrumpot 1]

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I got exactly what I was promised and I know for a fact he made literally no profit on the sale...

Why in the world would YOU transact then, under such circumstance(s)? Seriously. You are not (were not) doing ANYONE any favors, under such auspices!

When I transact business - with any reliable, good business source or associate... ESPECIALLY if I want to maintain the privelege of transacting with them again - or long term (or ANY period of ever expecting to transact repeat business with them, time) - I want to make DAMN SURE actually, they are making a profit! Certainly not exactly the opposite, as you seem so proud and pointed to assert.

It is not reasonable to expect, let alone "know for a fact", otherwise. - Think about it.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[DARK 0]

haha dont be ridiculous

1. At the time they were not a business in the traditional sense as explained above by his then partner

2. I asked for a quote on a certain item he gave me one, just because I know now (3 years in the industry that I didnt have then) how sweet a deal I got does not reflect basly on me in any way

3. plenty of business's use loss leaders as a way of gaining new customers so even if I did know that he was only breaking even on my purchase it is up to him to balance the books not me

[Marisan 0]

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I'm not here to join the pile-on, I just wanted to offer the observation that I think Gary has been here before and dug his way out, but that was before he had the overheads of his store etc. and while his reputation was still intact and his suppliers weren't pissed off. The story I got was that a few years ago Gary got a load of orders from the UK and wound up losing a small fortune due to a sudden change in the exchange rate ( I think the markets bear this out ). Anyway he kept everyone happy, and clawed his way back to success. Once he'd recovered he found a partner and invested in a store. He seemed happy and excited about future prospects. He was ordering demo/loaner rigs to cover order periods etc. with hindsight adding to his overheads in unsustainable ways.

Anyone thought of chasing said partner?

Depends how it's set up, if they're limited you'll be SOL. Just remember that that guy got screwed bigger than anyone because he put cash into Karnage Krew for a portion of the company and ended up with a share of what you see unfolding.

Not the partner I know of. I'll bet he got his money out in time. (Against the bankruptcy laws in Oz and he's got plenty of assets too)

[noidea 0]

Hi all im new here and new to skydiving but have also been stung by karnage krew. I ordered a full vector rig main/reserve etc... all up incl delivery/taxes $9,270.60.
Promised a demo rig if I paid up front and never received one - and as a result of the situation we are all aware of, have been notified by UPT that my order was put on hold in November and I was never notified by Gary. Also im out over $500 in gear hire since the order.
Really hoping to get a full refund and am going down all available avenues currently to get this sorted but as there seems to be no way to contact Gary its going to be an uphill battle. To make things worse I have a trip to the states booked for august which is purely for jumping. I can understand things went bad for all the reasons we still dont know but to cut all contact and leave us all in the dark is pathetic.
My personal hope is that he never has anything to do with running a business in Australia again as this is unacceptable (if skydiving/skydivers mean so much to you then why leave us in the dark)???

Anyway if anyone wants to discuss this further PM me if we can get a group of us together we have more power to deal with the situation. I will be getting a bunch of legal info in the coming weeks when im back in australia and would be happy to share anything I know with others in the same shitty position.

Blueskies

[noidea 0]

your exactly right mate my patience ran out once I couldn't get in touch with Gary or anyone else regarding my rig - all 9k of it...
going down all avenues at the moment to resolve this in my favour but would really help if I could contact Gary.

If anyone has a contact etc and feels like sharing thatd be great ..

[justincolebriss 0]

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Hi all im new here and new to skydiving but have also been stung by karnage krew. I ordered a full vector rig main/reserve etc... all up incl delivery/taxes $9,270.60.
Promised a demo rig if I paid up front and never received one - and as a result of the situation we are all aware of, have been notified by UPT that my order was put on hold in November and I was never notified by Gary. Also im out over $500 in gear hire since the order.
Really hoping to get a full refund and am going down all available avenues currently to get this sorted but as there seems to be no way to contact Gary its going to be an uphill battle. To make things worse I have a trip to the states booked for august which is purely for jumping. I can understand things went bad for all the reasons we still dont know but to cut all contact and leave us all in the dark is pathetic.
My personal hope is that he never has anything to do with running a business in Australia again as this is unacceptable (if skydiving/skydivers mean so much to you then why leave us in the dark)???

Anyway if anyone wants to discuss this further PM me if we can get a group of us together we have more power to deal with the situation. I will be getting a bunch of legal info in the coming weeks when im back in australia and would be happy to share anything I know with others in the same shitty position.

Blueskies

THIS GOES FOR EVERYONE:

we are finally compiling all the info from everyone about the different stuff that has happened so the police can pursue charges on him. Please send me your location, phone number, full name, and best way to contact you directly to my email at [email protected]

Do you know GARY LUCAS? He represents, or used to be Karnage Krew aka KKrew Skydiving Pty Ltd. I am looking for him, please contact me if you know his whereabouts.