Karnage Krew

[dorbie 0]

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If no one has yet to file any criminal charges (theft, fraud, etc.) and he files bankruptcy first, it's going to be harder to prove the criminal charge vs. just being a bad businessman. If nobody does anything, then he wins.

And what has he won?

A cash up-front business is in trouble. He lengthens his supply chain to keep his business liquid and tries to appease his suppliers by using the liquidity generated by the delay to cover his debts. It backfires when customers start calling his suppliers to discover that orders have not yet been placed, then it all implodes.

I don't know what Australian law says on the matter, and the OP certainly got screwed, but I doubt that gary took money with no intention of fulfilling orders but Karnage Krew should certainly stop the carnage now.

Gary,

Is that you?

LOL, nice try. Sorry to disappoint but not everyone is baying for Gary's blood.

He fucked up his business and lost more than a rig, you should keep that in perspective.

If he's won then it's victory from the Charlie Sheen school of winning.

[BIGUN 1,049]

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If no one has yet to file any criminal charges (theft, fraud, etc.) and he files bankruptcy first, it's going to be harder to prove the criminal charge vs. just being a bad businessman. If nobody does anything, then he wins.

And what has he won?

A cash up-front business is in trouble. He lengthens his supply chain to keep his business liquid and tries to appease his suppliers by using the liquidity generated by the delay to cover his debts. It backfires when customers start calling his suppliers to discover that orders have not yet been placed, then it all implodes.

I don't know what Australian law says on the matter, and the OP certainly got screwed, but I doubt that gary took money with no intention of fulfilling orders but Karnage Krew should certainly stop the carnage now.

Gary,

Is that you?

LOL, nice try. Sorry to disappoint but not everyone is baying for Gary's blood.

He fucked up his business and lost more than a rig, you should keep that in perspective.

If he's won then it's victory from the Charlie Sheen school of winning.

You should put the amount of damage he's done "in perspective."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[dorbie 0]

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If no one has yet to file any criminal charges (theft, fraud, etc.) and he files bankruptcy first, it's going to be harder to prove the criminal charge vs. just being a bad businessman. If nobody does anything, then he wins.

And what has he won?

A cash up-front business is in trouble. He lengthens his supply chain to keep his business liquid and tries to appease his suppliers by using the liquidity generated by the delay to cover his debts. It backfires when customers start calling his suppliers to discover that orders have not yet been placed, then it all implodes.

I don't know what Australian law says on the matter, and the OP certainly got screwed, but I doubt that gary took money with no intention of fulfilling orders but Karnage Krew should certainly stop the carnage now.

Gary,

Is that you?

LOL, nice try. Sorry to disappoint but not everyone is baying for Gary's blood.

He fucked up his business and lost more than a rig, you should keep that in perspective.

If he's won then it's victory from the Charlie Sheen school of winning.

You should put the amount of damage he's done "in perspective."

Businesses that go under always cause this type of damage, especially if the owner hangs on too long trying to make a worsening situation work. There are always creditors, otherwise the business would be in the black and wouldn't fold. I've suggested why Gary was perhaps overly optimistic/aggressive in architecting his economic recovery having done it before with KK.

You'd feel a lot better if you put down the pitchfork and tried to develop a better understanding of what actually happened. Your aneurysm isn't going to injure Gary.

I could see your point if Gary was legging it into the outback with a suitcase full of cash, but in reality he fucked up, lost everything he's worked for for 4 years and is swimming in red ink. Going out of business is not a crime.

[davelepka 4]

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Businesses that go under always cause this type of damage, especially if the owner hangs on too long trying to make a worsening situation work

I could see your point if Gary was legging it into the outback with a suitcase full of cash, but in reality he fucked up, lost everything he's worked for for 4 years and is swimming in red ink. Going out of business is not a crime

No way bro. No way.

You're way off base with the comparisons your making to business and cash flow. He was in a 'boutique' custom product business with very, very low profit margins. if he was in retail, making 50% on everything he sold, then you float things along with 'cash flow' and set up a system of recieveables, payables, and credit, and you work it to the best of your ability.

When you're selling $8000 custom built rigs for people, and you're clearing 10% (at best) on the sale, you can't float 90%+ of the sale and use that money for other things. You need to sell 10 more rigs with every penny of that profit going to repay the 90% float on the first rig. So to successfully get $8000 to play with, you need to sell 11 rigs and collect no profit, just a temporary loan of $8000 to use for expenses. it just doesn't work that way.

I've said it before, the guy gets ONE chance at this. Once you take one order and collect payment and then don't send the order in, you know what you did and that you have to stop right then and there. Even then that's a crime if he doesn't repay every cent, and even if he does, it was still the wrong thing to do. Gary kept taking orders, collecting payment, and not forwarding the orders or the money to the manufacturers, over and over again, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. There is no excuse for that.

[jenette 0]

I really don't get this forum. A jumper on these forums months ago warned you all about his KK experience and I wanted to do the same.. But you all shot him down in flames and gave him no support tell the world Gary is a good guy and a good dealer. This scared me off from backing him up via my experiences.

Mr. Lucas is a nice person, I believed he had good intentions, but certain lifestyle choices I believe clouds his judgment and some very very bad mishandling of money. His heart is in the jumping and the sport, but without business skills you can soon wind up looking like a con man.

Even though my custom rig that I bought that doesn't fit properly took 8 months to arrive and in January this year I had to get on a plane for 5hrs to ambush him for my main.. At least I got my goods (though no receipts, so my insurance is screwed)

I think people on these forums should wait before hacking someone to bits that had the good gusto of warning people of dodge dealers, no matter how much of a buddy they are to you.

www.exoticbodypiercing.com.au

[tayra 0]

Everyone has waited, he's winding up looking like a con man because he flat out does not communicate with any of his customers and hides from them. He has not once addressed how he plans to solve this mess.

[likestojump 3]

I really, really, really have had a HARD time keeping my mouth shut throughout all this. As have a few others who I have exchanged PMs with.

Common sense suggests that entrusting large sums of money to a "extreme discount" dealer is not smart. A business like that cannot survive in a skydiving industry.

The first signs started showing up awhile back, when select few started complaining about Gary. Yes, like the poster above me said, the one who got onto the Ponzi scheme early enough were happy, and thus their SINGLE PAST experience made them experts on how the said dealer is "good people".

Gary's ramblings to me in personal emails were borderline incoherent and his consistent pleadings to "lease him rigs" were an absolutely insane business proposal.

As far as his fleet of demo rigs. Throughout these forums he claimed to have a lot of them, and to send them to any customer who orders gear through him. How many actual demo rigs were there ? Can anyone say they saw them ? (I hear of one in Picton, that's it). Such an insane business proposal in itself was a huge red flag - a ROCK BOTTOM DISCOUNT dealer providing a first class service. It was easy to see that it is either a terribly (un)planned business or a money laundering operation.

He owed me $350USD close to a year for some repacks and shipments I did for him. I finally got fed up with his excuses and had a friend of mine visit him as he moved into his "KK clothing store " in Picton. Gary did not have the $$$, but reasoned with me, and I finally got paid by Paypal.

I can keep going on about the topic, but the bottom line, as usual is that "if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is".

real sorry to hear about all the people who got screwed on this

[justincolebriss 0]

Well I am all for moving forward with criminal chanrges and I hope that someone out there knows where Gary is.

As for anyone who is defending Gary or his business is any way shape or form, you are retarded.......

All he did was lie and lie to everyone, most likely gambling and doing drugs as he wrote in 1 email to me. In fact the email I got immediately after he received my money said, "Sweet, going to the casino now mate, red or black?"

Then if anyone had the pleasure of being friends with him of Facebook, he always posted stupid rap videos about doing cocaine....

Regardless, I still have his bank account information although it is for his KKrew Skydiving Party Ltd account.



So here is what I suggest. If you have been wronged monetarily by Gary or Karnage Krew please PM me and I will start the process of pursuing him through the system onm everyone's behalf.

The outcome of any trial will come in our favor without doubt and we will also go after him under criminal charges as well to ensure he doesn't run away from us.

So let the emailing begin.....

Do you know GARY LUCAS? He represents, or used to be Karnage Krew aka KKrew Skydiving Pty Ltd. I am looking for him, please contact me if you know his whereabouts.

[jenette 0]

I see where you're coming from. But, He took large professional ads out in ASM.. I live in WA and he called me immediately after my inquiry and sent me letters of recommendation from manufacturers. He came across as sincere and legit.

With badgering I received a demo rig and cared for it. I was very very careful not to get left without a rig.

Alot of people say if the the deal is to good it's probably dodge. He sold the deal professioanlly, not a under the table. How the fuck were some of us to know?? People on this forum plaised him and shot down complaints from burnt customers. I'm very very thankful I have my gear. I know where all your money has gone, but it would be improper for me to post someones problematic lifestyle choices.

Yes yes yes!! I'm sticking with local more expensive options in future :)

www.exoticbodypiercing.com.au

[justincolebriss 0]

I was just sent this by someone who will remain nameless.

A picture of the Criminal in question....



Jenette - Please contact me as I have a few other people who would like to be involved with your case against him including myself.

Do you know GARY LUCAS? He represents, or used to be Karnage Krew aka KKrew Skydiving Pty Ltd. I am looking for him, please contact me if you know his whereabouts.

[degeneration 5]

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In fact the email I got immediately after he received my money said, "Sweet, going to the casino now mate, red or black?"

In fairness he sent me emails like that all the way through my order with him. Emails saying that there had been errors with the order, delivery had gone wrong etc. All were jokes. Despite the negative feeling on here for him, he did have a sense of humour, so I doubt making a joke comment like that was really what he then went nad did with your money.

I'm obviously one of the lucky ones who ordered a full rig from him, got it in the time frame stated and at easily the cheapest price available at the time. £2200 or £2300 for a container, main and reserve was pretty good.

Anyway, my point being despite all the wrong things he has clearly done, don't jump on and blow out of proportion small things that were almost certainly just jokes.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[davelepka 4]

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Anyway, my point being despite all the wrong things he has clearly done, don't jump on and blow out of proportion small things that were almost certainly just jokes.

Almost certainly? Does anyone else recall Gary mentioning winning big money playing online poker back in the day when he used to post all the time? Am I confusing him with someone else (quite possible)?

If not, winning big usually turns in to losing big at some point, thus the nature of gambling. Per chance he was doing it with other peoples money?

[dorbie 0]

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Well I am all for moving forward with criminal chanrges and I hope that someone out there knows where Gary is.

You can file a criminal complaint, it'll be up to more level headed individuals to determine if criminal charges are appropriate under whatever laws apply.

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As for anyone who is defending Gary or his business is any way shape or form, you are retarded.......

Yea right, anyone who doesn't see it your way is a retard.

I'm not too keen on defending him, but I am offering another view of the story.

You got burned, you're unlikely to get even. You should take some satisfaction in the fact that Gary lost his business and burned himself and his business partner more than any of his customers.

[dorbie 0]

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In fact the email I got immediately after he received my money said, "Sweet, going to the casino now mate, red or black?"

In fairness he sent me emails like that all the way through my order with him. Emails saying that there had been errors with the order, delivery had gone wrong etc. All were jokes. Despite the negative feeling on here for him, he did have a sense of humour, so I doubt making a joke comment like that was really what he then went nad did with your money.

I'm obviously one of the lucky ones who ordered a full rig from him, got it in the time frame stated and at easily the cheapest price available at the time. £2200 or £2300 for a container, main and reserve was pretty good.

Anyway, my point being despite all the wrong things he has clearly done, don't jump on and blow out of proportion small things that were almost certainly just jokes.

Yup and this kind of record indicates that he was a legitimate businessman who screwed up and over extended himself. Then he lost his reputation as he tried desperately to make it work. In losing his reputation any chance of a recovery (if there was one) was lost.

[dorbie 0]

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As far as his fleet of demo rigs. Throughout these forums he claimed to have a lot of them, and to send them to any customer who orders gear through him. How many actual demo rigs were there ? Can anyone say they saw them ?

He planned to have 10 demo rigs, all vectors, I know that in November of 2009 he was able to order 4 stock demo Vectors (not the 10 he wanted) at a 50% discount.

I've seen people say they had their hands on them on the forums here and even in this thread, they existed, whether he got the rest I dunno.

I agree it seems incompatible with a deep discount business, but he used the investment windfall to purchase his fleet of demo rigs and they were deeply discounted. He could probably have survived that. The real problem would only arise longer term in sustaining that fleet.

He'd sold 5 rigs in one weekend and had 4 loaners covered by the stock vectors he just ordered. I know this because I was trying to get a cheap rig on the back of his big order and he was doing that for me in consideration of the work I'd done for him, but my inclusion fell through because UPT didn't have all the stock rigs needed in the right sizes.

Speculating that there were no demo rigs or it was all a ruse is just more noise in the pile-on.

Gary was selling gear for 4 years, and it seams to have gone south for him in 2010.

[g2gjump 0]

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Yup and this kind of record indicates that he was a legitimate businessman who screwed up and over extended himself. Then he lost his reputation as he tried desperately to make it work. In losing his reputation any chance of a recovery (if there was one) was lost.

Your statment still doesn't change the fact that he still owes his customers lots of money seriously your trolling isn't fooling anyone

[dorbie 0]

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Yup and this kind of record indicates that he was a legitimate businessman who screwed up and over extended himself. Then he lost his reputation as he tried desperately to make it work. In losing his reputation any chance of a recovery (if there was one) was lost.

Your statment still doesn't change the fact that he still owes his customers lots of money seriously your trolling isn't fooling anyone

Not trolling, go look up what that means.

The business entity named Karnage Krew owes people money, but it's also clear that KK is no longer viable.

You seem to have no problem with people saying absolutely anything including wildly speculative bullshit in the absence of facts but post another perspective with what facts I have and it's trolling?!

Well' I'm done here. Best of luck.

[James.UWE 0]

There were a few threads on here, and UKS where people made complaints about KK, mostly about small transactions. Everyone shot them down and called bullshit on them though.

I fell for it all, and bought a rig from him. Thank fuck I actually got mine though. I had agreed a price that was to include having my rig fully assembled and delivered to Perris, but after 'problems' it was not assembled when it all arrived at Perris, so I had to pay GBP100, which was never refunded to me as promised.

I also sent him some cash (not a huge amount) for a 2nd hand pilot chute that never came, and got email after email of excuses and reasons why it never arrived. Promises of hoodies and a couple of pairs of gatorz etc. Obviously never came, and all got stuck by customs or something.

In hindsight it seems ridiculous that so many people fell for his excuses, especially looking back at how obviously lame and repetitive they were. Myself included.

I honestly can't see this happening elsewhere, must be a skydiver thing to place so much trust in people on the internet hey? I'm kicking myself for actually depositing £3.5k ish into a Royal Bank of Scotland account belonging to the girlfriend of a bloke in Australia. Sounds fucking dumb now doesn't it? At least I was lucky enough to be towards the bottom of the ponzi, as my rig was probably bought with the cash that should have paid for someone else's rig.

All that said, I'm not convinced Gary did all this maliciously though, I think it was more through poor business practices, a lot of bullshitting and a huge amount of denial.

[jakee 1,254]

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Anyway, my point being despite all the wrong things he has clearly done, don't jump on and blow out of proportion small things that were almost certainly just jokes.

Almost certainly? Does anyone else recall Gary mentioning winning big money playing online poker back in the day when he used to post all the time?

There are several threads on the UK skydiving forums where he talks about betting a fair bit of cash on big sporting events - often with flat out wrong information about previous results.

One in particular I called him on when he ended up losing his entire stake spread betting on a tennis match where everything he said about the results of recent meetings between the two players was wrong. He then PMed me and said he didn't want to talk about gambling any more in the forums but he'd actually just won way more than he'd lost on the result of another match, that he hadn't previously mentioned. Hmm, y'think?

A lot of his posts here and on that forum about his business structure, and his responses to disgruntled customers seem similarly scattered...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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There were a few threads on here, and UKS where people made complaints about KK, mostly about small transactions. Everyone shot them down and called bullshit on them though.

In hindsight it seems ridiculous that so many people fell for his excuses, especially looking back at how obviously lame and repetitive they were. Myself included.

What's the 3 step plan that politicians always use? 'Deny, attack, obfuscate', or something like that. Whatever it is, Gary's responses here always seemed to fit to a tee.

And regardless of the responses themselves, you've just got to look at quantity. How many online complaints have you ever seen about Square One? How many about Sunshine Factory? How many about KK, a small start-up with a minute fraction of the established guys' customer base? However good the deal was that some people got, the sheer volume of compaints has gotta show that something isn't right.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[g2gjump 0]

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The business entity named Karnage Krew owes people money, but it's also clear that KK is no longer viable.

Wether or not Gary (Karnage krew) is financially viable it doesn't change the fact he owes people money. You are saying since he doesn't have the money, he doesn't owe them(customers)

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Not trolling, go look up what that means.

Man up and let us know who you are then, otherwise you have no credibility in this forum.

[dorbie 0]

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The business entity named Karnage Krew owes people money, but it's also clear that KK is no longer viable.

Wether or not Gary (Karnage krew) is financially viable it doesn't change the fact he owes people money. You are saying since he doesn't have the money, he doesn't owe them(customers)

The way Karnage Krew was structured and the fact that is is now effectively defunct DIRECTLY and UNAVOIDABLY affects whether or not Gary Lucas owes anybody any money. You can make silly assertions all day long online about it, but Gary is not Karnage Krew, they are different legal entities, but it does depend on how he set up the company.

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Not trolling, go look up what that means.

Man up and let us know who you are then, otherwise you have no credibility in this forum.

I'll stand on the substance of what I've written, case in point, this little exchange where reality lends my post all the credibility it requires.

[g2gjump 0]

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he way Karnage Krew was structured and the fact that is is now effectively defunct DIRECTLY and UNAVOIDABLY affects whether or not Gary Lucas owes anybody any money

So you expect all the people KK screwed to just forget about it and bury the hatchet?

[billvon 2,380]

>You can make silly assertions all day long online about it, but Gary is not Karnage Krew

Well, phew! We can certainly stop dissing ASC and Cary Q over Skyride, then.

[rockola 0]

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The way Karnage Krew was structured and the fact that is is now effectively defunct DIRECTLY and UNAVOIDABLY affects whether or not Gary Lucas owes anybody any money. You can make silly assertions all day long online about it, but Gary is not Karnage Krew, they are different legal entities, but it does depend on how he set up the company.

If it can be shown that the business engaged in fraud, the directors can be held personally responsible, Pty Ltd notwithstanding.