quade 3 #76 December 8, 2003 Quote The point isn't whether the case went anywhere or not. The point is when the court orders you to respond to a question, it isn't up to you to decide whether the order is germaine. Suppose a defendant in a murder case was compelled to explain his/her whereabouts at the time of the murder and they lied, resulting in the case going nowhere, does that justify their actions? When did they repeal the 5th Amendment? I thought you still had the right to remain silent in this country. Ok, that's not what he did for whatever reasons and he's paid for it. So, now let's talk about GWB lying to Congress, shall we?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #77 December 8, 2003 I want to go back to the original post and ask a question. I totally applaud President Bush for risking his life and going to Iraq to boost the morale of our soldiers. Which I believe is also the point the original email is trying to bring across. That aside, I want to get a reaction from the people here on what they think about President Bush not attending the funeral of a single soldier that has fallen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #78 December 8, 2003 To be fair, I'm not sure how many Presidents have attended funerals of soldiers during war time in the past. Anybody know? Ok, after a little Googling . . . it looks like they don't usually attend funerals all that often. They -have- attended some particularly high-profile funerals, but I think it's premature to say that GWB is shirking his Presidential duties or being disrepectful over this issue. HERE is a web site that, while I can't vouch for all of the information because I haven't done all that much research on the topic, certainly looks fairly reasonable and well documented.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #79 December 8, 2003 QuoteSo, now let's talk about GWB lying to Congress, shall we? Please do. There is a difference between lying and being wrong. It still is not conclusive that he was wrong though. I think you are assuming that he gave incorrect information knowingly. Do you have any conclusive proof of this? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #80 December 8, 2003 Quote Do you have any conclusive proof of this? You're asking me to prove that weapons of mass destruction were not in Iraq? That's a bit like asking me to prove there were never any UFOs at Roswell. An impossible proposition of trying to prove a negative. I would say, much like I do when talking to UFO folks, that extraoridinary claims require extrordinary proof and that the burden of proof lays on those making the claim. In this case, the US Government.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #81 December 8, 2003 Politician = liar they all lie. clinton just made himself and his family look like idiots when he failed to "man-up" after getting caught. How stupid does he think the rest of us are? i dont condem the man for getting a hummer. i actually applaud him. hell if i was married to hillary...id stick my cigar in blewinski too! I believe the email from a Captain in Iraq is propaganda. Obviously our government uses propaganda and they use it well. Its something we are never going to be able to avoid. We can only learn to recognize it. I consider it propaganda when people "hate talk" about our president just because they dislike him. Most of the time these attacks have absolutely no substance and only serve the purpose of spreading further hatred. Now if you folks would...please elaborate on your hatred of our president.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #82 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuote Do you have any conclusive proof of this? You're asking me to prove that weapons of mass destruction were not in Iraq? That's a bit like asking me to prove there were never any UFOs at Roswell. An impossible proposition of trying to prove a negative. I would say, much like I do when talking to UFO folks, that extraoridinary claims require extrordinary proof and that the burden of proof lays on those making the claim. In this case, the US Government.*** No, he's asking you to back up your statement that GWB "LIED" to Congress since you expressed a desire to discuss it. I don't understand how Space Aliens entered into the discussion unless thats where you got the information to make your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #83 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuote The point isn't whether the case went anywhere or not. The point is when the court orders you to respond to a question, it isn't up to you to decide whether the order is germaine. *** Suppose a defendant in a murder case was compelled to explain his/her whereabouts at the time of the murder and they lied, resulting in the case going nowhere, does that justify their actions? When did they repeal the 5th Amendment? Why does the right against self incrimination enter into it? Clintons' affair with Lewinsky wasn't a criminal matter? I thought you still had the right to remain silent in this country.*** ?????????????????????? Ok, that's not what he did for whatever reasons and he's paid for it. So, now let's talk about GWB lying to Congress, shall we? O.K.you go first. What did he "LIE" about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #84 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe you would change your tune in a face to face with him. I met him when he was Governor of Texas. I was 22 years old, and played a significant role in securing 10 million dollars in investments/venture capital for the firm I worked for. My boss gave a speech on large frame network security at a breakfast at the Governors mansion. Both Governor Bush and President Bush were present, and I met them both face to face. . Hitler was said to be charming in person. Personal charm is IMO a disadvantage in a politician (but not for a politician), because many people confuse this with being good for the country. I never said he was charming. I simply stated that I *have* met him face to face, and dispelled the argument that I would "change my tune". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #85 December 8, 2003 QuoteYou're asking me to prove that weapons of mass destruction were not in Iraq? I'm asking you to give proof that he lied. You said he lied didn't you? Is this based on any proof or just a gut feeling? Before I call someone a liar I try to have my facts straight. Seems to me this might be a politically based accusation rather than a factual one. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #86 December 8, 2003 QuotePolitician = liar I'll assume you are just being cynical. My father was a politician for 16 years. I saw the crap he had to put up with from the general public. It's amazing anyone even wants those jobs. They are completely thankless. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #87 December 8, 2003 See HERE for a detailed analysis of the 2003 State of the Union Address. See this page for an easier to read analysis. MORE about the Clean Skies Act. yet another analysis I dunno, seem like a lot of folks think he told at least a few lies.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #88 December 8, 2003 Well Said Chris, Thats why I refuse to Post or reply on anything Political. The Facts are the Facts. Ones Views or Ideas are always a Basis for Criticism. It seems this one has run its coarse...Freedom of Speech Brother.. The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #89 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuote Do you have any conclusive proof of this? You're asking me to prove that weapons of mass destruction were not in Iraq? That's a bit like asking me to prove there were never any UFOs at Roswell. An impossible proposition of trying to prove a negative. I would say, much like I do when talking to UFO folks, that extraoridinary claims require extrordinary proof and that the burden of proof lays on those making the claim. In this case, the US Government. The BBC "Panorama" program has recently done some very good investigative work looking into the pre-war "intelligence" and what really was going on with the WMD's. They had access to several key player on both the Iraqi side and the Dr. Kay's "search party". Very interesting report. The transcript of this report can be found under the below URL. If you are interested in facts and analysis then have a read. It is quite balanced and gives some good insights into what might really have happened up to the war: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3261705.stm--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #90 December 8, 2003 Yawn............ I have no intention of wading thru numerous web page links just to read about how a President or anyone else for that matter made a statement that they believed was true at the tiime they made it. The little I did read before I became bored had GWB stating the economy would improve and the number of people unemployed would decrease. Seems thats happening. You still haven't backed up your statement that "GWB lied to Congress". You framed this statement in the same context and alluded to an equal severity as lying under oath in a Court of Law. Had you said "all Politicians lie", you'd get no arguement from me but you are taking it to a more serious level by insinuating GWB broke a law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #91 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuotePolitician = liar I'll assume you are just being cynical. My father was a politician for 16 years. I saw the crap he had to put up with from the general public. It's amazing anyone even wants those jobs. They are completely thankless. lol ok i'll concede to that one. Funny things is that two weeks ago I was thinking to myself....watch bush goto baghdad. Imagine the looks on the faces of the Secret Service agents assigned to the prez when they were told they were heading for Iraq. Poor dumb bastards.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #92 December 8, 2003 QuoteI dunno, seem like a lot of folks think he told at least a few lies You're reaching. A lot of people are making the accusation but it is all a political game aimed at tarnishing his reputation. I've still not seen anything conclusive including these links you just posted. Quick examples from your links: Quote 2. "Our first goal is clear: We must have an economy that grows fast enough to employ every man and woman who seeks a job." Highest unemployment in a decade, climbing higher every month. 3. "…the best and fairest way to make sure Americans have that money is not to tax it away in the first place." Unless you're poor or middle class. Those aren't stating that he lied. They are trying to state, with no facts, that he was incorrect but not that he lied. A person lies when they make a statement of fact that they know is false at the time that they make it. Just because they are later proven wrong does not make them a liar. It makes them incorrect. To me that is a big difference. If we were called a liar everytime we were incorrect then no one could claim to have any integrity. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #93 December 8, 2003 Say what Hollywood!!!!!!!! Do you mean you wouldnt buy me a beer. I thought we were old bud's. I mean, look at all the times I slammed you in 4 ways and stuff. I'm hurt man! I thought you were my friend!! lolIf you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #94 December 8, 2003 QuoteYawn............ I have no intention of wading thru numerous web page links just to read about how a President or anyone else for that matter made a statement that they believed was true at the tiime they made it. The little I did read before I became bored had GWB stating the economy would improve and the number of people unemployed would decrease. Seems thats happening. You still haven't backed up your statement that "GWB lied to Congress". You framed this statement in the same context and alluded to an equal severity as lying under oath in a Court of Law. Had you said "all Politicians lie", you'd get no arguement from me but you are taking it to a more serious level by insinuating GWB broke a law. Well, neither you nor I nor Quade were there, so it's all hearsay, but there have been many reports that GWB was told ahead of time that the statement about the attempted Iraqi purchase of uranium had no evcidence to back it up, but he went ahead and used it in the State of the Union address anyway.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #95 December 8, 2003 Quote"This is a good man, a politician yes, but a good man." Here in lies the ultimate oxymoron. I don't care what party you have faith in but no "politician" is a good person, man or woman. A statesman (stateswoman) may be a good person but they are few and far between these days. In Texas I voted against GW for Governor and then watched his policies rape that state. Followed by Mr. Good Hair Rick Perry. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #96 December 8, 2003 Quotebut there have been many reports that GWB was told ahead of time that the statement about the attempted Iraqi purchase of uranium had no evcidence to back it up It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it. There were people saying there was evidence to support it and people saying the evidence was incorrect. Here is one story about the situation: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20030714.shtml "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #97 December 8, 2003 It would seem I'm not the only cynic here www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #98 December 8, 2003 QuoteIn Texas I voted against GW for Governor and then watched his policies rape that state. Followed by Mr. Good Hair Rick Perry. I propose that in all political threads we must state our political affiliation. I think it'll help weed out the biased and non-biased statements. BTW I'm libertarian.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #99 December 8, 2003 QuoteQuotebut there have been many reports that GWB was told ahead of time that the statement about the attempted Iraqi purchase of uranium had no evcidence to back it up It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it. There were people saying there was evidence to support it and people saying the evidence was incorrect. Here is one story about the situation: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20030714.shtml I made it seem clearcut? I prefaced my remark with "Well, neither you nor I nor Quade were there, so it's all hearsay", which seems like saying it's as far from clearcut as you can get. I noticed that you selectively snipped that part.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #100 December 8, 2003 Quotebefore I became bored had GWB stating the economy would improve and the number of people unemployed would decrease. Seems thats happening. You still haven't backed up your statement that "GWB lied to Congress". You framed this statement in the same context and alluded to an equal severity as lying under oath in a Court of Law. Had you said "all Politicians lie", you'd get no arguement from me but you are taking it to a more serious level by insinuating GWB broke a law. Well, neither you nor I nor Quade were there, so it's all hearsay, but there have been many reports that GWB was told ahead of time that the statement about the attempted Iraqi purchase of uranium had no evcidence to back it up, but he went ahead and used it in the State of the Union address anyway. The difference is neither you nor I are alleging GWB broke the law by "lying to Congress" and Quade appears to be as evidenced by the point in the thread he made his "challenge". It becomes evident if you go back and read the thread up to the point the statement was made. I think this is a pretty serious allegation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
