Icarus Canopies after-sale service - be carefully

[ridestrong 1]

When I ordered my Safire2 they put Spectra lines on it. After ~150 jumps I felt like it had a slight left turn, possibly due to loss of trim after a poorly packed hard opening I had.

I contacted NZ Aerosports and 2 weeks later I received a brand new set of Vectran lines in the mail free of charge.

When I had the Spectra lines on my canopy my slider never got 'hung up'... now after switching to the Vectran lines my slider gets 'hung up' on virtually every jump and my openings are much softer... just my personal experience.

I had the Spectra lines measured by a rigger and was told they were all 'within trim'. If you would like them they are all yours free of charge. PM me if you'd like them.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[monkycndo 0]

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If any of you all-knowing skygods (monkycndo, diablopilot, martini) have any actual info to contribute to this thread please bless us all with your king shit knowledge. Otherwise go to some of the threads I started and continue bashing me there.

Ridestrong, the difference between the folks you call skygods and yourself, is that instead of providing information that is just plain wrong and forcing those that actually know WTF they are talking about provide the correct information and prove you wrong, we keep our mouth shut and let those that know WTF they are talking about to speak up. You said what you "thought" but obviously had limited understanding of the facts. Mel (masterrigger1) provided a great presentation at PIA about line types and their characteristics. I learned a lot. But I still prefer he come on and give the straight scoop.

Old saying:

Want to be heard? Speak up.
Want to be seen? Stand up.
Want to learn? Shut up.

Looks like you are more concerned with the first two and not the third.

I can appreciate that you want to help by giving an opinion, no matter how incorrect it may be. But when it is outright wrong and someone calls you out, don't get all pissy.

And every time someone calls me a skygod, I have to chuckle. Yes, I am confident in what I know, some hard earned through mistakes and some by asking those that have the knowledge I was seeking. I also know I have so much more to learn. I just don't open my mouth at every opportunity so people know which side of the equation that my "opinion"/knowledge actually falls.

This is a sport for grown ups that should be able to handle being told their "opinion" is wrong. Pull up your big boy pampers and grow a pair. So says the skygod. *chuckle*

[virgin-burner 1]

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Icarus Fuck Yeah!! if you don't like our openings than Fuck Off!!

What he said...

+1

tough, this weekend.. FUCK YEAH!, those openings do take long!

loving them, nonetheless..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[ridestrong 1]

However you want to see it chief.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[monkycndo 0]

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However you want to see it chief.

Nope, just a run of the mill indian. But thanks for your high opinion of me.

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[ridestrong 1]

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Spectra , despite not being very elastic , has more elasticity than vectran. It loses the trim due to its lack of heat resistance.
That is how I understand it

Yeah I saw that in the video as well... I agree, that makes sense.

I would still be interested in some information regarding elasticity properties between Spectra and Vectran if such info exists?

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[virgin-burner 1]

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Back to the OP's first post. He had two issues. First, he believes he has a bad canopy. That issue has been debunked here. The second issue is the lack of after-sale support from Icarus. No one has defended Icarus on this. IMHO, Icarus should be the one telling the OP that the canopy is fine and opens normally. If that had happened, the OP probably wouldn't have had to come here. I love my Omni 183.5 but I had the same lack-of-response from Icarus after I bought the canopy. Admittedly, that was years ago but I have not heard from anyone that the situation has improved. One would think that if Icarus wanted to have repeat business, they should take care of the customers they have.

mhm, i've just called icarus (nzaerosports) the other week, after i've had problems with receiving my last canopy from them.. after i've talked about the problems i've had with the last shipment, we kinda agreed on a future order, with a custom logo, directly ordered, and they (ritch, or richard) were very helpful..

i really do like icarus's customer-support..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Martini 0]

Skygod Martini to Skygod Monkey; made a couple of w/s jumps with Tony and Dave Saturday, two paraglide flights today including opening a new pg launch. Didn't worry too much about ignorant posts about linetypes but I sure learned a lot about w/s and pg. Mostly from people with better skills and experience than I have. Funny, the more experience I have the more questions I ask. I sure like hanging with people I respect, it humbles me as well as educates me. Also makes me less tolerant of posers.

Keeping on thread: No discussion of HMA(?) and also one of the reasons I've never owned an Icarus canopy is their poor service reputation, but Icarus isn't the only mfg guilty of a reputation of poor service.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Hellis 0]

This thread reminds me of this video

http://www.iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/slow-opening-snivel-lasts-60-seconds/

[Martini 0]

I recently bought a Sabre that someone put a slider mod on, the thing would have snivelled forever if I hadn't been able to shake the slider down using violent riser input, my Xaos will also snivel far too long if packed improperly. There really IS such a thing as too soft an opening, a 60 second snivel would fall in that category. The Icarus canopy questioned in this thread went about 3 seconds not counting the end cell closures, that really isn't even a snivel. I get a kick out of that vid, it reminds me that throwing under 2k can bite ya.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[theonlyski 3]

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When I ordered my Safire2 they put Spectra lines on it. After ~150 jumps I felt like it had a slight left turn, possibly due to loss of trim after a poorly packed hard opening I had.

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I had the Spectra lines measured by a rigger and was told they were all 'within trim'. If you would like them they are all yours free of charge. PM me if you'd like them.

So, your left turn, wasn't due to the lines being out of trim then was it?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[masterrigger1 2]

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It also looks like those lines are old as shit... you can see fraying wear all over them in the videos

I only see fraying on the lower control lines.

When you do not stow the lowers like this guy, the lowers are beating around at 120 mph.

It does not take long for them to wear at that speed.

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If you get new lines, you might just want to get some Spectra lines. They're thinner and smoother than Vectran and you'll probably have less slider hang-up with quicker openings.

Spectra vs Vectran....
Vectran would be the stronger of the two, given the same diameter.


BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[tdog 0]

Mr. Martini:

It is people like you that have caused me to stop coming to this site often. I used to have many posts per day. Now it is a few a month...

Ridestrong said something he thought. Instead of saying back, "Hey, I thought it was the other way around, I looked up this info, check it out." - you sent a pretty nasty first shot across the bow. You said:

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Seriously, do some research before giving bad advice. But thanks for posting your jump numbers as a warning.

Would you say that to a friend at the DZ who you disagreed with? If you did, I wonder how much respect they would have for you? If I saw you do that, I would purposely avoid jumping with you when there are so many other awesome people in the world.

This is a discussion forum, not an answer forum. Discussion is normally two adults having a conversation and both learning when they are done. I know I have had heated disagreements with someone online here too, but I have tried hard to not thow out insults.

Take away the voice, the face, and the human interaction, and this site suddenly becomes an insult factory. Why?

I have jumped with Ridestrong. He is actually, in real life, a great guy. He also takes a lot of energy to learn the facts... And he also admits when he is wrong. He asked me for info on this subject and even quoted the PD videos he re-watched about lines. He legitimately asked people to give data online, but still no data, just more post of insults.

Since in your first posts to him, you "bashed" his experience based on jump numbers - I am going to say this with a wink and a chuckle in my tone, but with also some seriousness "I have more jump numbers that what both of you published online combined. Now go apologize to the fellow for being a dick to him!"

[stayhigh 2]

CIMSA has shitty customer service,
NZAerosport has pretty decent to excellent customer service.

Neos comes from CIMSA/ Spain

JVX/JFX the awesome stuff comes from nzaerosports.

don't get them confused.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[monkycndo 0]

Tdog, these forums are a poor substitute for a face to face conversation. When reading a post, we have to only go one what a person types, and nothing else. Just like Ridestrong being great in person, Martini can be as well. I am not trying to stand up for him, he is a big boy and can do it for himself. He just comes across as a gruff old fart on here. Kind of the way Ridestrong comes across as a young jumper wanting to show people how much he knows. There is a bit of history in previous posts and threads about doing /saying things that are outside of what is considered acceptable with Ridestrong becoming defensive. He walks into this thread with that history attached. Years of time in sport and working with the gear often trumps the anecdotal opinion from a single relatively inexperienced person. A newer jumper might not see the difference of who is posting opinion vs hard acquired knowledge.

In this thread, several times info was put forward as fact with other posters having to tell how it was wrong. Line size vs strength, shrinkage/stretch, wear characteristics. Why not do the research first w/o having to be corrected? Or ask it as a question so it is obvious that one doesn't know and showing you want to learn, prompting the correct answer to be provided.

As seen, the method used will get a very different response.

I am more than willing to stop what I am doing and help a new jumper learn, it is one of the things I enjoy in this sport. Your example of how to respond to a post is also an excellent example of a way to ask a question. But walk up with a swagger and say "prove me wrong", a vastly different response will often be provided. Especially when it isn't the first time.

I look forward to meeting both you and RS. That way the smiley faces will be obvious.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
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[ridestrong 1]

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....these forums are a poor substitute for a face to face conversation.

Can't we all just get along.


I thank Tdog for helping to clear up my off line rep a bit.. I realize that I have been in some, maybe many 'heated discussions' here as well. I admit that there is some entertainment to the 'back and forth' here on dz.com but ultimately when it comes to the Skydiving discussion forms my intention is to learn and contribute, if I can... even if that contribution is wrong but opens up further discussion. I will work on removing my stigma... and try saving the back and forth for SC.

Regardless, I've always enjoyed all you assholes anyway...

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[monkycndo 0]

Yep, one of these daze we'll meet. And I can finally school you in person.

Oh, and the only way you'll lose the rep is to join us as an old fart and earn the "skygod" status from the newest young upstart whippersnapper.

Just you wait.


And get off my lawn.


hhrrrmmmmmfff

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[lucianaofly 0]

check the lines in the left riser...the lines on the soft link is not in the right sequence(i see this on the video or is a optical illusion?)many sabres had the same opening...or buy an old monarch...he opens very fast....

lucianao

[Rigless 0]

It seems that everybody is so focused talking about the speed of the opening while the OP is most likely venting about half of the cells having closure..

"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

[ridestrong 1]

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It seems that everybody is so focused talking about the speed of the opening while the OP is most likely venting about half of the cells having closure..

But I think a lot of that (end-cell closure) is in part due to the slow slider descent/slow opening. If the slider is held up half way down the lines it will pull the outer lines toward the center there by not allowing them to inflate as quickly, resulting in that prolonged cell closure. I think...

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[monkycndo 0]

This can be a chicken and the egg question.

Is the slow opening main not creating enough push to force the slider down or is the held up slider preventing the end cells from catching air. Not sure.

I have a Nitron that will be fully open, but the slider hangs about 2 feet above the risers. How I pack it can greatly effect the speed of the slider coming down. Had a Sabre2 that the slider would race down the lines, but the end cells would take a while to pressurize. I like the Nitron, got rid of the S2 due to the off heading openings.

YMMV

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[zxcvb 0]

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But I have found that wingloading really needs to be known.

I've heard a lot of jumpers who got a Sabre2 as their first owned main parachute complain about the openings - hunting, off heading, end-cell-closure.

So I jumped a few, from 230 down to 170.

I am a big fellow, and the resultant wing loadings ranged from about 1.2 to 1.65.

At the low end, I saw all the stuff these folks complained about.

At about 1.4, things started changing, and by the 1.65, all of the bad habits were gone, with firm, on-heading openings with no end-cell-closure being the normal behavior.

So, in my experience, we really need to know the wing loading to make sensible comments about what this fellow is experiencing.

In my experience, it isn't all about wingloading. A canopy may not scale perfectly, and the air molecules stay the same size. A 230 square foot canopy at 1.2 is not going to open the same as a 170 at 1.2. If you took that 230 and put on enough lead to load it up the way you do the 170 it would open (and fly) different due to the size even if you could deploy at the same airspeed with all that lead.

The canopy has a different weight and different size nose openings. A good manufacturer such as PD will test jump the design and make tweaks to try and get them to be the same, but it doesn't always work.

[riggerpaul 1]

I didn't say it was the whole story.

But lighter wingloading often correlates with quirky openings and possible end-cell-closure.

[zxcvb 0]

Correlation isn't the same as causation. If you take one of these "smaller" canopies that you think open well because they're loaded up and put a lighter experienced jumper on it, odds ore that it will open just as well for them. Or you could try adding lead when you test a larger canopy, assuming you can keep your deployment speed consistent.

[Martini 0]

I really don't want to hijack this thread further but I have a reason not to take this to PMs. My point to Ridestrong was to make him, and others, aware that it isn't OK to offer unqualified advice even if your intentions are good. When I started jumping if a lowtimer was heard offering ANY advice he was gonna get an ass chewing. This is not a forgiving sport. I'd much rather upset someone with my lack of PC than see someone get bad advice. And I'm constantly amazed at how easily people here act all offended and angry if I flip them shit, I fully expect a sporting response not a "fuck you". My problem with this site is that it is too namby-pamby and not aggressive enough, way too much tolerance of bad info from unqualified jumpers. I almost never offer advice, I think rigging advice should be left to riggers for example. I am willing though to offer experience-based information and I have total respect for other peoples opinions if they are fact based or experience based. Both you and Ridestrong are welcome to PM me, I'd be happy to give you my phone number if you'd like to talk.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............