davelepka 4 #26 February 16, 2011 QuoteI (and the average person) have say a 4 foot swing from arms up to arms all the way down, and she has a 2ft swing, that's going to require a drastically different setup That's why my suggestion above was a canopy set to fly in enough brakes that her 'arm swing' would end up in a full flare. I know a one-armed guy who jumps, and his set-up is a cross connector between his toggles. It's tied to one side, and has a carabiner on the other, so after opening he clips it onto the opposite toggle. He steers with one hand on either toggle, but pulls the cross connector for the flare. We found that the cross connector added length to the toogles/steering lines, so he wasn't able to get a full flare. We ended up shortening the steering lines so he would end up with a full flare, even if his canopy is in a braked configuration with the toggle all the way up. The guy weighs in at 210lb/220lb, and he jumps a Nav 280, so the less-than full flight approach isn't a big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guineapiggie101 0 #27 February 17, 2011 How small is this person? I recently started my AFF (am on level 3 now) and I am only 4'5" tall. I worked it out with my DZ and they altered some student gear for me where I am jumping with a ripcord deployment (since I couldn't reach the BOC handle). I don't have issues with reaching the toggles, so I don't think they did anything with that. As for the emergency handles, I use one hand on each one. I know some DZ suggest you use both hands for each one. I have trouble with that since I have a short reach. Eventually I will switch back to a BOC, I think, when I am off student status. As a small skydiver, she might have problems staying stable and arching (I know I have issues with that), so she might need to do some tunnel time at a wind tunnel. I know that helps a lot, since after doing 15 min at the local wind tunnel, my arch is a lot better and I am staying stable easier. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dsbbreck 0 #28 February 17, 2011 I want to thank everyone who made constructive comments and suggestions to my inquiry. You have given me a lot more to think about. I intend to do some more tandems with her, and the tunnel is real close to us. If she feels skydiving is something she really wants to pursue then we will work more on modifing a rig that will work for her, or maybe she'll be ready to purchase one made especially to work for her. If anyone has anything more constructive to add, please just PM me. If the moderators see this, please put this thread to bed and block it before it gets out of control. Thanks,David "Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #29 February 17, 2011 QuoteBeyond that, many people jump canopies with short lines every day, namely most high performance canopy pilots. Relatively speaking, most high performance canopy pilots use longer lines. My canopy (jvx79) is half the surface area of a 160 but has almost the same length between canpoy and pilot."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #30 February 19, 2011 "... A spring loaded PC on the main would solve any issues with reaching the BOC, having strength/leverage upon reaching the BOC, and being able to get the PC clear of the burble for release. ..." .................................................................. A spring-loaded pilot-chute on the main would create more problems than it would solve. Trust me - because I packed for (retired) U.S. President George Bush Senior. When we finished that rig, Sandy Reid (President of Rigging Innovations) said: "That is the last rig - of that configuration - that we will ever build." Besides, most student rigs - that still have SLMPC - locate their ripcord handles on the lower, right-hand corner of the main container. P.S. A fancy AFF-style, double-handle BOC is not mandatory. Many DZs (e.g. Pitt Meaodws, Beiseker, Dunville, etc.) have used single-handle BOCs - for decades - with no problems. Rob Warner FAA Master Rigger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #31 February 19, 2011 How much does she weigh? How tall is she? How long are her arms? How wide are her shoulders? How long is her torso? The better harness manufacturers (Jump Shack, Rigging Innovations, UPT, etc.) can all make her a harness that fits properly. A properly-fitted harness will solve most "handle problems" with standard handles. As for the length of her arms affecting her flare .. there is no substitute for square footage. As long as she loads her canopies in the 0.6 to 0.7 pounds per square foot range, precise flare technique is not important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #32 February 19, 2011 QuoteA spring-loaded pilot-chute on the main would create more problems than it would solve I'm not sure how you figure. I trained on a SLMPC with a chest mounted handle, and had no trouble. Sure, you can get a hesitation or two, but it gets the job done. My concern is the little people aren't always proportionate to full size people. When I stand straight, my fingertips reach past the half-way point down my thigh, so when I reach up to my BOC, I'm well within the reach of my arm, which gives me leverage and strenght to extract the PC. If this person has shorter arms, and is at the end of her reach, she loses the leverage and might have trouble extracting the PC. Add to this high number of hard pulls leading to reserve activations I've seen from smaller/petite females who just didn't have the strength to overcome a tight BOC PC, and it's not hard to see this might be a problem. Even if some DZs use a hip mount or BOC ripcord, there's no reason a chest mount couldn't be set up for this jumper. Let's face it, if she can't handle a chest mount ripcord, she can't handle a cutaway or reserve handle either, and shouldn't be jumping at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #33 February 20, 2011 Quote Even if some DZs use a hip mount or BOC ripcord, there's no reason a chest mount couldn't be set up for this jumper. Let's face it, if she can't handle a chest mount ripcord, she can't handle a cutaway or reserve handle either, and shouldn't be jumping at all. Bit if the hipmount/lateral mount can be used for student training, it's much more close to what the student will have should they continue in the sport and have a custom rig built, that would potentially have a BOC deployment. In the couple of unusual circumstances I've worked with, the lateral mount worked well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #34 February 21, 2011 Take it from some-one who is so old - that he learned how to skydive back when spring-loaded, main pilot-chutes were fashionable for senior jumpers ... spring-loaded main pilot-chutes create more problems than they solve. If you doubt my opinion, then look at the scar in my moustache ... caused by a hard, unstable pull when I was a freefall student. There are many reasons why most Canadian DZs scrapped their main ripcords in the 1980s and most American DZs converted to BOC during the 1990s. If the student - in question - does not have enough arm muscle to pull a pilot-chute out of the BOC - on a student rig - she does not have enough arm muscle to skydive PERIOD! ... because - in the long run - she will have to convert to a BOC on her own (custom-sized) rig ... and converting people to use different types of handles produced a miserable survival rate back in the 1970s and 1980s. In conclusion, I am so old that I have jumped several types of static-lines (military and civilian), main ripcord, bell-band mounted throw-out pilot-chute, front of leg strap, rear of leg strap, BOC and even a few pull-outs. I have also been a jump-master since 1982 and I firmly believe that there are two types of deployment for students: BOC and ..... er .... antiquated pieces of %$#@! Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner S/L Jump-master since 1982 IAD Instructor since 1984 PFF Instructor since 1999 and a couple sets of military jump wings (S/L) the FAA Master Rigger who packed for President (retired) George Bush Senior Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ecnuob 0 #35 February 22, 2011 What about a BASE container and Belly mount reserve? Much easier to make a smaller container, cheaper to manufacture as well (no TSO complications). Possibly even snekor style chest mounted toggles w something like a 180 ultralite ZP canopy? Some Little people have normal size bodies, but short limbs. Some are just all little. I would think the short limbs would make for a very fast faller, and very little control over fall rate and movement... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #36 February 22, 2011 Quote Some Little people have normal size bodies, but short limbs. Some are just all little. I would think the short limbs would make for a very fast faller, and very little control over fall rate and movement... This. A lateral-mount, springloaded PC may be the only option due to reach combined with stability, not strength. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #37 February 22, 2011 "QuoteWhat about a BASE container and Belly mount reserve? ..." ....................................................................... The longer this thread continues, the sillier it gets. Belly-mounted reserves were fashionable back when I was a student. Belly-mounted reserves fell out of fashion for good reasons. As for BASE containers ... I can only think of one that is legal to jump out an FAA-registered airplane. You suggestions would only make skydiving MORE DIFFICULT for a short person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #38 February 22, 2011 I would suggest talking to the student about whether she can afford specialized gear. Write tasteful letters / emails to major manufacturers with her measurements, weight, etc. and describe the problem. Suggest that you will (or you will find someone to) write an article for various publications such as Parachutist and any specialty publications for people with her challenges. You will take lots of pictures on the ground and in the air with the manufacturer's logo prominently displayed. Those images will accompany any story publication. See if anybody is willing to make the investment for the publicity value. It is unlikely that this niche market would make the investment of time worthwhile otherwise. You might also want to look into a good suit to help with stability and have her practice with it in a wind tunnel. There are generally ways to work a mechanical advantage and longer throw to solve the problems described. They usually make things more complex and therefore prone to problems. But I'm sure it can be done.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
