diverdriver 5 #51 December 27, 2003 QuoteHand flew all the way to 29k in what? that must have been flying for a good 7-10min man so long. Don't forget that there are great pilots that get paid nothing and still do it for the love not the money. Why do we always have to do things for no pay just because we love it? Why is it so damn inconceivable to want to earn a descent wage for the job we perform? Flying to 29K takes about 20-30 minutes depending on a few things in the RJ. Which is longer than one load of jumpers to 13k. And I did plenty of hand flying when I was flying skydivers. 12-13 hours per day on the weekend of hand flying. But I think I should be able to put my future kids through college one day.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skinflicka 0 #52 December 27, 2003 Not much difference between teachers and motivational speakers (both regurgitate old shit) and not much difference between a pilot and a Greyhound driver. Discuss... Seconds out, round two. $kin. Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #53 December 28, 2003 QuoteDiscuss... What? How much you're a troll? meant in all fun.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #54 December 28, 2003 Troll, troll, troll, troll... troll, troll, troll, troll... i'd still like to see an intelligent response to my questions posed earlier. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #55 December 28, 2003 Quote What about the mother (or father for that matter) that does all of that.... and has a full-time career? Why am I not surprised that someone would find a beef with this? I apologize for leaving out something so obvious. Where was my head? Oh I know, because my wife's full time job is TEACHER and she does all the above other things. Therefore by definition we are talking about those who work a full time job and do all the above mentioned stuff. I know of no parents that both (or in case you find some other beef - no single parent) Who works a full time job plus homeschools their children. There just is not enough time in the day. If you meet or know one Introduce them to me so I can shake their hand for they are Gods among mortal men. My original statement stands. Why does everyone think a stay at home Mom is the worste thing a woman can be? Makes me admire my wife all the more because she chose this life gladly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #56 December 28, 2003 QuoteWhy does everyone think a stay at home Mom is the worste thing a woman can be? Looking back at my childhood (my mom was a stay at home mom from when I was born until I was about 12/13, worked before I was born then after I was 12/13), I can't say that she ever had it easy or any of her days weren't very busy with a lot of things that needed to be done. I, by no means, am expecting someone I marry to be a stay at home mother, that's really up to her. Honestly, if someone needs to stay at home and she's the one pulling in the money that we live on, then I'll be the one to stay at home for the kids (if that needs to be done). I look at it being a partnership for the common good (especially once you have kids), the common good being that of trying to raise good kids into what you see to be good people. *shrug* Thats the theory, anyways, I'll see how well it works IRL before too long.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdgregory 0 #57 December 28, 2003 Well I tell ya, as long as both parties agree and who stays home and who goes to a job it works great. I personally would not have married a woman who would not stay home. What a shame that this next line cannot go unsaid but if I do not say it there will be hell to pay. Not that I have a problem with people who do it differently. Each person must go their own way and chose their own family life. I, personally wanted someone who wanted to stay home with the kids. I found one and married her. She personally wanted a husband who wanted a stay home mom. She found one and married him. So no I do not think it is wrong for a woman to be a working mom, it was just wrong for my life. I sure hope that covers the bases. Oh and Dave, there was a short time (two years) where our roles were reversed. Let me tell you women make it look easy. That was the toughest job I ever had. That was when I really realized what my wife did everyday. It put everything in perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #58 December 28, 2003 I'm still thinking about what takes more brain-power...flying a passenger plane or driving the greyhound bus? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #59 December 28, 2003 Troll, troll, troll your boat....gently down the stream..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #60 December 28, 2003 QuoteWhy am I not surprised that someone would find a beef with this? i didn't find beef with it. QuoteI apologize for leaving out something so obvious. Where was my head? Oh I know, because my wife's full time job is TEACHER and she does all the above other things. Therefore by definition we are talking about those who work a full time job and do all the above mentioned stuff. My original statement stands. Don't get so defensive man. No one here has criticized you or your wife's choice. I am a bit confused though. I thought you said your wife was a stay at home mom (which is cool), but you're saying she's a "TEACHER" now. I know, granted, that all moms are in a sense teachers and role-models and nurses etc., but there is a difference between teaching your own children and teaching 80 children in a classroom setting. So, does your wife teach in a school or did you mean she is a teacher because she is a mom? what school? what grade? Quote Why does everyone think a stay at home Mom is the worste thing a woman can be? when did anyone say that besides you? Are you insecure about it? It's obvious you love your wife very much and appreciate her. And you have your ideal living arrangement, so that's awesome. There's nothing wrong with that. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #61 December 28, 2003 Who is "overpaid" always depends on where people are on that spectrum. The "rich" are the ones making three times what a person makes. My rules are always "How long did it take you to get the education necessary to do your job?" and "Could a person with no training figure out how to do your job?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #62 December 28, 2003 QuoteMy rules are always "How long did it take you to get the education necessary to do your job?" and "Could a person with no training figure out how to do your job?" Take a look at THIS and tell me if you think anyone off the street can figure this RJ out. No? Needs training? Needs recurrent training every six months with your job on the line? Gun to your head? Yah, thoughts so. I agree with Happythoughts.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skylord 1 #63 December 29, 2003 QuoteI'm still thinking about what takes more brain-power...flying a passenger plane or driving the greyhound bus? OK, I'll jump in on this. The bus operates in two dimensions, a pilot in three. If the engine conks out in a bus, you coast to a stop at the side of the road. If it happens in a single, you are now a glider pilot. If it happens in a twin, and you don't maintain the minimum controllable airspeed, the live engine will put you on your back faster than Catherine Zeta-Jones with much less satisfying results. The bus doesn't have "weight and balance" calculations to worry about. Greyhound drivers have a much less complex transportation infrastructure to navigate in. The pilots follow invisible highways, interpreted by instruments, and directed in real time by air traffic controllers (like me). They have to get every clearance right every single time. It isn't like missing a freeway exit. There is a ton more that can go wrong in an RJ than a bus. I mean, really, when was the last time you read about a bus that got too slow on the freeway and crashing? "Yep, I saw it all. The bus was doing 35 in a 45 zone and damn if the sum-bitch didn't rear up and crash front first into the road!" For this argument, let's just assume a situation where there are no emergencies, no ATC, and no other complications. Getting in an airplane, starting it up, getting it airborne at all the right speeds, cruising it properly, monitoring all the instruments, descending it properly, maintaining the right airspeed so you don't corkscrew into the ground, and flaring at the right time so you don't break the airplane, would seem to me the nod goes to the pilot. Maybe I'm a sucker and got pulled into this thread not realizing the personalities involved, but that is my take on it. Aviation, for the most part, is a terribly underpaid vocation. It is interesting, to me, to see the comparison to teachers, since most pilots spend a significant part of their careers teaching. Don't get me wrong, I think teachers are underpaid as well, but I think flight instructors are even more underpaid, and nearly all don't have the benefits the undercompensated teachers get. Same with skydiving. I think it sucks. I tipped very well to do my part to make up for that with my tandem jump. I'll do the same with my AFF-Is later. Hopefully Shark isn't reading this Chris is right here. Bring the underpaid up to decent wages. But I fear the mentality that brought us Wal-Mart will prevail in this country, and we will have pilots making $35,000 a year driving the heavy iron, with no or few benefits. This is why the union movement developed in this country early in the 1900's. Workers got screwed, and it is happening again already. I personally think part of the trend is irreversible in certain industries, but not in many others. You get what you pay for, and the rise of the middle class post WW 2 was due in large part to the INCREASE in pay and benefits to the rank and file. That's what we need to focus on. Anyway there's my treatise for the night. I hope everyone has a great New Year, I know I will since I'll be getting licensed in 2004 by underpaid and underbenefitted AFF-Is BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lewmonst 0 #64 December 29, 2003 you fed the trolls peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #65 December 29, 2003 My Dad was one of those "$250,000 a year Delta pilots." I don't think he was overpaid one bit. Did he have it pretty good his last few years with the company. Sure.....after 42 years of service I would hope that anyone at ANY company would be treated well. He came up from the bottom. Came over from the Georgia Air National guard after serving 6 years. He started driving fuel trucks and being a mechanic. Spent 4 years doing that before they finally hired him on to fly. Spent the next 38 years and over 39,000 hours in 9 differen't aircraft. L-100 (C-130) to L-10-11. Who do you want driving a couple hundred thousand pounds of aircraft and 300+ people around. I'll take his experience any day. Of course now.....after spending 42 years of his life working for a company.....he is worried that Delta could go bankrupt. Which could pose a VERY serious threat to his pension. I think that's pretty sad. I also think it's a crime that RJ pilots make about $28,000 a year. Crazy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #66 December 29, 2003 I have a very simple question. If he ignores it, then we will all understand his place in this argument. Have you ever flown an airplane? (edited for grammar) -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skylord 1 #67 December 29, 2003 QuoteI have a very simple question. If he ignores it, than we will all understand his place in this argument. Have you ever flown an airplane? I'm not sure if this was for me, but it is a great question and I apologize for not making my background more clear. Sorry! Yes, I'm commercially licensed, instrument and multi engine rated. I have been an air traffic controller at both Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center and later at Southern California TRACON since 1988. I have no time as a bus driver, but my step father has. I jumped for the first time in May, 2003, signed up for AFF and am at Level 3 as of tonight. Those are my qualifications, and thanks for the question. It's a good one. BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #68 December 29, 2003 My question was addressed to tunaplanet, but I'm glad you answered it. Your credentials should add more weight to the point we're trying to make. To anyone who says that pilots are biased, let me tell you this. I've been working as a programmer for the last 4 years and I will be the first to tell you that most programmers are grossly overpaid, including me on many occasions. It's not true that all professionals are biased towards their professions. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skylord 1 #69 December 29, 2003 I just got a PM from Lew on this, and learned how to read replies. No problem, sorry I misinterpreted the question, but am glad to add whatever I can to a cogent discourse. Bob, the increasingly competent dropzone.com guyBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #70 December 29, 2003 QuoteI've been working as a programmer for the last 4 years and I will be the first to tell you that most programmers are grossly overpaid Calculations of value are generally based on a 6-month net zero method. The project has a budget that should be recoverable 6 months from the end of a project. The value should be about 40-to-one over an extended period. Some projects with 40+ people will have a budget of $1 million a month. When including hardware, software, workers, overhead, and management people it adds up. If a project runs over by 3 months, it is a lot. A good project manager easily pays for their own salary. In my last 4 jobs, I have found software flaws or done database tuning that has paid for my entire salary times a factor of 4. People in software production are given tasks that reflect their skill level. Sometimes their contribution is not understood because they are not given the bigger picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #71 December 29, 2003 I did not say all. But there are large groups who write very simple frontends for databases, for instance. In this case all the work has been done by a small group of competent programmers. Plonking down some controls in Visual Basic and flooding message boards with questions about incorrectly assigned properties that are described in the documentation is not worth 85k a year. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #72 December 29, 2003 Here is what I mean. I have stuff that I need done. Some is pretty simple stuff. Once it is done, it needs to be tested, documented, and distributed properly. I don't want to do it. I assign someone to do it. Ever see a donkey walk around one of those turnstiles. Software is like that. There is a lot of mindless, droning tasks that need to be completed. I turn those over to new guys. I want them done, tested, documented, etc. Even easy stuff has to be done. Value is determined by price times quantity or cost reduction. Few users times large income or many users (think internet) times small income. Make an insignificant change, 3 cents profit on 150,000 sales. Example. Right now, we are converting from one reporting package to another. The outsource group is changing the control statements, testing, documenting. It is mind-bendingly boring. They get a good rate, we save $2.5 million over the next two years by paying them $600K. Everybody is happy. Software seems easy if you know what you are doing. My mechanic thinks the same thing about cars, they confound me. Own an outboard motor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #73 December 29, 2003 I see what you're saying. However, there should be a lot of people who can do the grindstone work. Since the job market is competitive, just like any other market, this should drive the amount of money they earn down. It's being artificially forced to not work this way, and, in my opinion, this was one of the main reasons for the dot com bust. The earnings should factor in not only the amount of work done, but the difficulty of the work and hence the availability of workers. The McDonalds cashiers keep the company running, but you're not paying them 85k a year for a reason. Sure, it's a bit of an extreme comparison, but I think it makes my point. Anyway, this thread has too many posts by me in too short a time -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdgregory 0 #74 December 29, 2003 My wife is a teacher because she teaches our kids. My oldest is in tenth grade and my wife teaches her Math, Physics, Language Arts, Health, Spanish, etc. She does the same thing for my youngest daughter and Son. That is what I mean by teacher. Most stay at home moms still send their children to school. My wife has school at home. That is what I meant by calling her teacher. We are talking about more than just mommy teaching them to read. And Lew: Per my PM - I apologize for reading more into your post than was there. Maybe I was looking for a fight? No, not really but I cannot think of a good excuse other than I was feeling pissy and took it out on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LoudDan 0 #75 December 29, 2003 Same here, I work for ASA which is owned by Delta, and the difference in pay between companies is huge. We had a record breaking year in revenew, load factor, and completion, Delta has been loseing money like its a trend, yet their mechanics and pilots still easily make 2 and 3 times what we do at the regional. Actually with the pilots its more like 4 to 5 times more. Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AggieDave 6 #56 December 28, 2003 QuoteWhy does everyone think a stay at home Mom is the worste thing a woman can be? Looking back at my childhood (my mom was a stay at home mom from when I was born until I was about 12/13, worked before I was born then after I was 12/13), I can't say that she ever had it easy or any of her days weren't very busy with a lot of things that needed to be done. I, by no means, am expecting someone I marry to be a stay at home mother, that's really up to her. Honestly, if someone needs to stay at home and she's the one pulling in the money that we live on, then I'll be the one to stay at home for the kids (if that needs to be done). I look at it being a partnership for the common good (especially once you have kids), the common good being that of trying to raise good kids into what you see to be good people. *shrug* Thats the theory, anyways, I'll see how well it works IRL before too long.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #57 December 28, 2003 Well I tell ya, as long as both parties agree and who stays home and who goes to a job it works great. I personally would not have married a woman who would not stay home. What a shame that this next line cannot go unsaid but if I do not say it there will be hell to pay. Not that I have a problem with people who do it differently. Each person must go their own way and chose their own family life. I, personally wanted someone who wanted to stay home with the kids. I found one and married her. She personally wanted a husband who wanted a stay home mom. She found one and married him. So no I do not think it is wrong for a woman to be a working mom, it was just wrong for my life. I sure hope that covers the bases. Oh and Dave, there was a short time (two years) where our roles were reversed. Let me tell you women make it look easy. That was the toughest job I ever had. That was when I really realized what my wife did everyday. It put everything in perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #58 December 28, 2003 I'm still thinking about what takes more brain-power...flying a passenger plane or driving the greyhound bus? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #59 December 28, 2003 Troll, troll, troll your boat....gently down the stream..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #60 December 28, 2003 QuoteWhy am I not surprised that someone would find a beef with this? i didn't find beef with it. QuoteI apologize for leaving out something so obvious. Where was my head? Oh I know, because my wife's full time job is TEACHER and she does all the above other things. Therefore by definition we are talking about those who work a full time job and do all the above mentioned stuff. My original statement stands. Don't get so defensive man. No one here has criticized you or your wife's choice. I am a bit confused though. I thought you said your wife was a stay at home mom (which is cool), but you're saying she's a "TEACHER" now. I know, granted, that all moms are in a sense teachers and role-models and nurses etc., but there is a difference between teaching your own children and teaching 80 children in a classroom setting. So, does your wife teach in a school or did you mean she is a teacher because she is a mom? what school? what grade? Quote Why does everyone think a stay at home Mom is the worste thing a woman can be? when did anyone say that besides you? Are you insecure about it? It's obvious you love your wife very much and appreciate her. And you have your ideal living arrangement, so that's awesome. There's nothing wrong with that. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #61 December 28, 2003 Who is "overpaid" always depends on where people are on that spectrum. The "rich" are the ones making three times what a person makes. My rules are always "How long did it take you to get the education necessary to do your job?" and "Could a person with no training figure out how to do your job?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #62 December 28, 2003 QuoteMy rules are always "How long did it take you to get the education necessary to do your job?" and "Could a person with no training figure out how to do your job?" Take a look at THIS and tell me if you think anyone off the street can figure this RJ out. No? Needs training? Needs recurrent training every six months with your job on the line? Gun to your head? Yah, thoughts so. I agree with Happythoughts.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #63 December 29, 2003 QuoteI'm still thinking about what takes more brain-power...flying a passenger plane or driving the greyhound bus? OK, I'll jump in on this. The bus operates in two dimensions, a pilot in three. If the engine conks out in a bus, you coast to a stop at the side of the road. If it happens in a single, you are now a glider pilot. If it happens in a twin, and you don't maintain the minimum controllable airspeed, the live engine will put you on your back faster than Catherine Zeta-Jones with much less satisfying results. The bus doesn't have "weight and balance" calculations to worry about. Greyhound drivers have a much less complex transportation infrastructure to navigate in. The pilots follow invisible highways, interpreted by instruments, and directed in real time by air traffic controllers (like me). They have to get every clearance right every single time. It isn't like missing a freeway exit. There is a ton more that can go wrong in an RJ than a bus. I mean, really, when was the last time you read about a bus that got too slow on the freeway and crashing? "Yep, I saw it all. The bus was doing 35 in a 45 zone and damn if the sum-bitch didn't rear up and crash front first into the road!" For this argument, let's just assume a situation where there are no emergencies, no ATC, and no other complications. Getting in an airplane, starting it up, getting it airborne at all the right speeds, cruising it properly, monitoring all the instruments, descending it properly, maintaining the right airspeed so you don't corkscrew into the ground, and flaring at the right time so you don't break the airplane, would seem to me the nod goes to the pilot. Maybe I'm a sucker and got pulled into this thread not realizing the personalities involved, but that is my take on it. Aviation, for the most part, is a terribly underpaid vocation. It is interesting, to me, to see the comparison to teachers, since most pilots spend a significant part of their careers teaching. Don't get me wrong, I think teachers are underpaid as well, but I think flight instructors are even more underpaid, and nearly all don't have the benefits the undercompensated teachers get. Same with skydiving. I think it sucks. I tipped very well to do my part to make up for that with my tandem jump. I'll do the same with my AFF-Is later. Hopefully Shark isn't reading this Chris is right here. Bring the underpaid up to decent wages. But I fear the mentality that brought us Wal-Mart will prevail in this country, and we will have pilots making $35,000 a year driving the heavy iron, with no or few benefits. This is why the union movement developed in this country early in the 1900's. Workers got screwed, and it is happening again already. I personally think part of the trend is irreversible in certain industries, but not in many others. You get what you pay for, and the rise of the middle class post WW 2 was due in large part to the INCREASE in pay and benefits to the rank and file. That's what we need to focus on. Anyway there's my treatise for the night. I hope everyone has a great New Year, I know I will since I'll be getting licensed in 2004 by underpaid and underbenefitted AFF-Is BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #64 December 29, 2003 you fed the trolls peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #65 December 29, 2003 My Dad was one of those "$250,000 a year Delta pilots." I don't think he was overpaid one bit. Did he have it pretty good his last few years with the company. Sure.....after 42 years of service I would hope that anyone at ANY company would be treated well. He came up from the bottom. Came over from the Georgia Air National guard after serving 6 years. He started driving fuel trucks and being a mechanic. Spent 4 years doing that before they finally hired him on to fly. Spent the next 38 years and over 39,000 hours in 9 differen't aircraft. L-100 (C-130) to L-10-11. Who do you want driving a couple hundred thousand pounds of aircraft and 300+ people around. I'll take his experience any day. Of course now.....after spending 42 years of his life working for a company.....he is worried that Delta could go bankrupt. Which could pose a VERY serious threat to his pension. I think that's pretty sad. I also think it's a crime that RJ pilots make about $28,000 a year. Crazy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #66 December 29, 2003 I have a very simple question. If he ignores it, then we will all understand his place in this argument. Have you ever flown an airplane? (edited for grammar) -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #67 December 29, 2003 QuoteI have a very simple question. If he ignores it, than we will all understand his place in this argument. Have you ever flown an airplane? I'm not sure if this was for me, but it is a great question and I apologize for not making my background more clear. Sorry! Yes, I'm commercially licensed, instrument and multi engine rated. I have been an air traffic controller at both Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center and later at Southern California TRACON since 1988. I have no time as a bus driver, but my step father has. I jumped for the first time in May, 2003, signed up for AFF and am at Level 3 as of tonight. Those are my qualifications, and thanks for the question. It's a good one. BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #68 December 29, 2003 My question was addressed to tunaplanet, but I'm glad you answered it. Your credentials should add more weight to the point we're trying to make. To anyone who says that pilots are biased, let me tell you this. I've been working as a programmer for the last 4 years and I will be the first to tell you that most programmers are grossly overpaid, including me on many occasions. It's not true that all professionals are biased towards their professions. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #69 December 29, 2003 I just got a PM from Lew on this, and learned how to read replies. No problem, sorry I misinterpreted the question, but am glad to add whatever I can to a cogent discourse. Bob, the increasingly competent dropzone.com guyBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #70 December 29, 2003 QuoteI've been working as a programmer for the last 4 years and I will be the first to tell you that most programmers are grossly overpaid Calculations of value are generally based on a 6-month net zero method. The project has a budget that should be recoverable 6 months from the end of a project. The value should be about 40-to-one over an extended period. Some projects with 40+ people will have a budget of $1 million a month. When including hardware, software, workers, overhead, and management people it adds up. If a project runs over by 3 months, it is a lot. A good project manager easily pays for their own salary. In my last 4 jobs, I have found software flaws or done database tuning that has paid for my entire salary times a factor of 4. People in software production are given tasks that reflect their skill level. Sometimes their contribution is not understood because they are not given the bigger picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #71 December 29, 2003 I did not say all. But there are large groups who write very simple frontends for databases, for instance. In this case all the work has been done by a small group of competent programmers. Plonking down some controls in Visual Basic and flooding message boards with questions about incorrectly assigned properties that are described in the documentation is not worth 85k a year. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #72 December 29, 2003 Here is what I mean. I have stuff that I need done. Some is pretty simple stuff. Once it is done, it needs to be tested, documented, and distributed properly. I don't want to do it. I assign someone to do it. Ever see a donkey walk around one of those turnstiles. Software is like that. There is a lot of mindless, droning tasks that need to be completed. I turn those over to new guys. I want them done, tested, documented, etc. Even easy stuff has to be done. Value is determined by price times quantity or cost reduction. Few users times large income or many users (think internet) times small income. Make an insignificant change, 3 cents profit on 150,000 sales. Example. Right now, we are converting from one reporting package to another. The outsource group is changing the control statements, testing, documenting. It is mind-bendingly boring. They get a good rate, we save $2.5 million over the next two years by paying them $600K. Everybody is happy. Software seems easy if you know what you are doing. My mechanic thinks the same thing about cars, they confound me. Own an outboard motor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #73 December 29, 2003 I see what you're saying. However, there should be a lot of people who can do the grindstone work. Since the job market is competitive, just like any other market, this should drive the amount of money they earn down. It's being artificially forced to not work this way, and, in my opinion, this was one of the main reasons for the dot com bust. The earnings should factor in not only the amount of work done, but the difficulty of the work and hence the availability of workers. The McDonalds cashiers keep the company running, but you're not paying them 85k a year for a reason. Sure, it's a bit of an extreme comparison, but I think it makes my point. Anyway, this thread has too many posts by me in too short a time -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #74 December 29, 2003 My wife is a teacher because she teaches our kids. My oldest is in tenth grade and my wife teaches her Math, Physics, Language Arts, Health, Spanish, etc. She does the same thing for my youngest daughter and Son. That is what I mean by teacher. Most stay at home moms still send their children to school. My wife has school at home. That is what I meant by calling her teacher. We are talking about more than just mommy teaching them to read. And Lew: Per my PM - I apologize for reading more into your post than was there. Maybe I was looking for a fight? No, not really but I cannot think of a good excuse other than I was feeling pissy and took it out on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LoudDan 0 #75 December 29, 2003 Same here, I work for ASA which is owned by Delta, and the difference in pay between companies is huge. We had a record breaking year in revenew, load factor, and completion, Delta has been loseing money like its a trend, yet their mechanics and pilots still easily make 2 and 3 times what we do at the regional. Actually with the pilots its more like 4 to 5 times more. Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
