Libya to give up WMD's. Hmmmmmmmm!

[turtlespeed 212]

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I think it would be cool if all nations gave up WMDs.

Yep, me too. Except us.

LMFAO -
Sounds good to me too.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,396]

>I think you can chalk a victory up to GWB's foreign policy

Agreed. I think it's cool that we are learning that diplomacy can work, and doesn't involve killing thousands. Let's hope this sort of approach continues.

[turtlespeed 212]

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>I think you can chalk a victory up to GWB's foreign policy

Agreed. I think it's cool that we are learning that diplomacy can work, and doesn't involve killing thousands. Let's hope this sort of approach continues.

It would have with Saddam, but the little spoiled child does need to be spanked now and then. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,396]

>It would have with Saddam . . .

Agreed.

>but the little spoiled child does need to be spanked now and then.
> Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I agree, but if you accidentally kill 8000 of his friends when you are spanking your kid, it can do more harm than good in the long run.

[Gawain 0]

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>It would have with Saddam . . .

Agreed.

Hello...we, the whole world, the precious UN, all tried...it didn't work.

This example brought Libya to us! Libya did not go to the UN, they came to the US and UK. That is a major foreign policy mega-kudo to the President's policy.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TheAnvil 0]

I agree with you about the UN, but I'm not so sure this is a kudo to Bush's foreign policy team. I think Gaddafi was on this path before we decided to take out Saddam Hussein. Perhaps our actions served as a catalyst of sorts causing Gaddaffi to move up his timetable, but I really do believe this was the path he had already chosen. Still don't trust the SOB.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[captainpooby 0]

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>I think you can chalk a victory up to GWB's foreign policy

Agreed. I think it's cool that we are learning that diplomacy can work, and doesn't involve killing thousands. Let's hope this sort of approach continues.

You missed it. Diplomacy DIDNT WORK!

His daughters death and the sight of SH being pulled out of a freaking hole did!

You guys will never admit that diplomacy is the art of letting the other guy get his way.

The peoplw with the weapons make the rules.

[TheAnvil 0]

I dunno dude. I tend to agree with Clauzewitz that war in itself is an instrument of diplomacy.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[captainpooby 0]

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I dunno dude. I tend to agree with Clauzewitz that war in itself is an instrument of diplomacy.

Ding Ding Ding!
We have winner!

Diplomacy comes out of the barrel of a gun. The right kind anyway.

Not diplomacy as practiced by the left.
ie: "We need more dialogue. We need a concensus. We must seek alternate solutions". While actually doing NOTHING!

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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I think it would be cool if all nations gave up WMDs.

Yep, me too. Except us.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[turtlespeed 212]

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Quote

I dunno dude. I tend to agree with Clauzewitz that war in itself is an instrument of diplomacy.

Ding Ding Ding!
We have winner!

Diplomacy comes out of the barrel of a gun. The right kind anyway.

Not diplomacy as practiced by the left.
ie: "We need more dialogue. We need a concensus. We must seek alternate solutions". While actually doing NOTHING!

I agree with you on alot of issues, CP, but this is not one of them.
War is an ultimatum. It is saying, "Look, if you don't want to do what i want you to, I'm gonna kick you ass!" Sometimes that IS neccessary. And when it is, I support it. But this is not a shoot first and ask questions later world. I'm not saying to back up or back down, but there are compromises that DO have to be made. Granted, compromises made by earlier administrations are WHY wwe are having these problems now. And the gunbarrel diplomacy was useful, now it's time to stop the fighting, BOTH SIDES, and move on. The terrorists that are still in the woodwork need to be dealt with, and dealt with swiftly. Let's get it overwith, though.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[TheAnvil 0]

Humorous. Foreign aid, military aid, joint military operations, port visits by naval/coast guard vessels, personnel exchange, trade schedules, MFN trade status, etc are ALL examples of diplomacy in operation.

I too take humor in chiding the left about being the party of appeasement - they've EARNED the reputation through diligence and hard work. However, not all diplomacy is handled militarily.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Michele 1]

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I think Gaddafi was on this path before we decided to take out Saddam Hussein.

I'm not really sure about that, Vinny.

Even after the killing of his child, he kept making the weapons, and was "perilously close" to having a nuke, right? Who would continue to do that if they were on a "different" path? I think the admission regarding Lockerbie was a direct result after seeing the 9/11 fallout, and knowing they were on the "axis of evil" list. It can be proved, you see, that they were "against us", and wanted to change that out. Wouldn't you?

And I think the handing over of the WMD and disclosure of the nuke was a direct result of the war in Iraq. When he saw that exactly NO arab nation assisted Hussein, he began to understand totally what President Bush's speech meant - really meant. As in dead people, as in we are on our way.

And there is a different option which is rather slim but an interesting one to consider. What if Libya gave Saddam the o.k. to hide Saddam's weapons WMD, in Libya, and then, when Hussein was caught, realized there was no way out, and needed to get rid of them? (I know, it's wild, but something I was thinking about earlier) How would he do it without admiting culpability and/or duplicity? Here, have my weapons, have a good day...don't send inspectors in, please....

Dunno...but it is without doubt a damned good thing.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[TheAnvil 0]

Good points.
Cool theory about SH-Libya-WMDs. Perhaps it will prove correct the more we investigate.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[captainpooby 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I dunno dude. I tend to agree with Clauzewitz that war in itself is an instrument of diplomacy.

Ding Ding Ding!
We have winner!

Diplomacy comes out of the barrel of a gun. The right kind anyway.

Not diplomacy as practiced by the left.
ie: "We need more dialogue. We need a concensus. We must seek alternate solutions". While actually doing NOTHING!

I agree with you on alot of issues, CP, but this is not one of them.
War is an ultimatum. It is saying, "Look, if you don't want to do what i want you to, I'm gonna kick you ass!" Sometimes that IS neccessary. And when it is, I support it. But this is not a shoot first and ask questions later world. I'm not saying to back up or back down, but there are compromises that DO have to be made. Granted, compromises made by earlier administrations are WHY wwe are having these problems now. And the gunbarrel diplomacy was useful, now it's time to stop the fighting, BOTH SIDES, and move on. The terrorists that are still in the woodwork need to be dealt with, and dealt with swiftly. Let's get it overwith, though.

You missed my point TS. Diplomacy is nothing UNLESS YOU BACK IT UP!

No right thinking person wants war and all that it entails. But all the talk in the world will get you nowhere unless you can back it up.
Appeasment never works. Sanctions rarely/never do.
UN resolutions are worthless.

Go in and show you mean business and people stand back and say [keannu]whoa![/keannu]

The despots of the world USED to laugh at us UNTIL now.
And more blood will have to be shed to deal with the rest of the Tangos but I think a few countries are reconsidering their positions now after seeing what Saddam got.
Thats the point.
Talk is bullshit.
This war is a long way from over but its starting to look better every day. They know we mean business now.

[juanesky 0]

Finally there is a political post that most can agree, at least, in the greater picture. Michele, I agree with you 100%, maybe we will never know what was the last straw for Gadaffi, but at least he got the message.

I say this with no intent to sarcastically imply a "I told you so" wording, but there was some action needed.

Let us just pray, and send our vibes for all those who have been directly and indirectly affected.

Merry X-mas.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[happythoughts 0]

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Appeasment never works. Sanctions rarely/never do.
UN resolutions are worthless.

For the people who don't follow recent history. How long did SH have UN sanctions against him. What changes were brought about during them? Zip. Nada.

Quote

The despots of the world USED to laugh at us UNTIL now.

It was the UN Hokey-Pokey. Here is how the dance step worked.

You bring inspectors in,
you take inspectors out,
you bring inspectors in
and you spin them all about.

How many years were wasted with that whole stalling game? Nothing was ever accomplished. SH played the UN like a violin.

For people that want to use the UN, then you have to support the enforcement of its agreements. That is what finally happened after years and years of being patient.

Be patient for too long and other countries think you are suckers.

[captainpooby 0]

by happythoughts:
"For the people who don't follow recent history. How long did SH have UN sanctions against him. What changes were brought about during them? Zip. Nada."

Nevermind SH. I was actually thinking of Cuba. Sanctions work. Ya right.

[mikkey 0]

I think before making this a hughe victory for the GWB Iraq policy, you might want to read the below artice that I found on the BBC web site and which has some good analysis.


Why Gaddafi gave up WMD

By George Joffe
Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University

Although President George W Bush has sought to portray Libya's willingness to admit inspectors to examine its programmes of weapons of mass destruction as a success for American policy, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi may well feel that the success is really his.
After all, the next stage should be that, soon, the US will renew formal diplomatic relations - and that has been the Libyan objective since 1992, when United Nations sanctions were imposed.

Indeed, the Gaddafi regime has been trying for this since 1986, when US sanctions forced American oil companies to leave the country.

Although Libya's idiosyncratic leader had not bothered overmuch when the US broke relations in 1980, the departure of the oil companies also meant the loss of American oil technology upon which Libya relied.

Isolation

The issue became more acute after Washington bombed Tripoli and Benghazi in 1987, demonstrating to the colonel that support for international terrorism was a dangerous policy.

That became a crisis in 1992, after UN sanctions were imposed on Libya for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie four years earlier.

The universal oil and travel sanctions against Libya gave Libyans a sense of isolation that many deeply resented.

Throughout the 1990s, Libya sought to ease the burden, succeeding only at the end of the decade when it surrendered the two suspects for the Lockerbie bombing for trial in the Netherlands, after Britain had persuaded the US to accept the plan.

So over the past four years Libya has re-established links with Europe. But unilateral American sanctions remained and those imposed by the UN regime were only suspended, not ended.

Libya knew that it would have to pay compensation for the Lockerbie affair, renounce terrorism and accept formal responsibility for what had happened.

Lengthy negotiations over the past year resulted in a compensation settlement three months ago and the end of the international sanctions.

The US demanded still more, however, before it would end its own sanctions.

It insisted on political and economic change in Libya as well as renunciation of the weapons programmes that Washington insisted Tripoli was continuing - although Britain believed such programmes were merely "aspirational".

Reform 'vital'

Libya would also have to help in finally solving questions about Lockerbie which had been left unanswered by the trial.

This was no problem for Libya as its rulers knew that basic reform was essential.

Although Colonel Gaddafi himself was deeply suspicious of the necessary reforms, his advisers told him that economic success and diplomatic respectability depended upon them.

Libya had already renounced terrorism and even the colonel had to face the fact that stagnation in the Libyan economy was not just the result of sanctions but had much to do with public economic inefficiency.

Domestic pressures, not least an unsuccessful Islamist insurgency at the end of the 1990s, meant that political change was vital, too.

Economic interests

Last year, a new prime minister, Shukri Ghanem, an economist, was appointed with an explicit reform agenda.

Behind him - and radical supporters of the colonel - are reformers determined on economic efficiency and political change.

Libya seeks foreign investment, not just in the oil sector, where European companies are rushing for concessions.

Now, Colonel Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, who is close to the reformers, has persuaded his father that human rights abuses must end and that political reform is needed too.

Over the alleged weapons programmes, Libya had, nine months ago, proposed inspections.
So the American acceptance of its offer probably says more about President Bush's success in countering his many domestic critics than about overcoming Libyan resistance to inspections of its WMD programmes.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Yep, all the changes came within himself. He never changed his mind, particularly after seeing SH out of the fox hole.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

I think before making this a hughe victory for the GWB Iraq policy, you might want to read the below artice that I found on the BBC web site and which has some good analysis.


Why Gaddafi gave up WMD

By George Joffe
Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University

Although President George W Bush has sought to portray Libya's willingness to admit inspectors to examine its programmes of weapons of mass destruction as a success for American policy, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi may well feel that the success is really his.
After all, the next stage should be that, soon, the US will renew formal diplomatic relations - and that has been the Libyan objective since 1992, when United Nations sanctions were imposed.

Indeed, the Gaddafi regime has been trying for this since 1986, when US sanctions forced American oil companies to leave the country.

Although Libya's idiosyncratic leader had not bothered overmuch when the US broke relations in 1980, the departure of the oil companies also meant the loss of American oil technology upon which Libya relied.

Isolation

The issue became more acute after Washington bombed Tripoli and Benghazi in 1987, demonstrating to the colonel that support for international terrorism was a dangerous policy.

That became a crisis in 1992, after UN sanctions were imposed on Libya for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie four years earlier.

The universal oil and travel sanctions against Libya gave Libyans a sense of isolation that many deeply resented.

Throughout the 1990s, Libya sought to ease the burden, succeeding only at the end of the decade when it surrendered the two suspects for the Lockerbie bombing for trial in the Netherlands, after Britain had persuaded the US to accept the plan.

So over the past four years Libya has re-established links with Europe. But unilateral American sanctions remained and those imposed by the UN regime were only suspended, not ended.

Libya knew that it would have to pay compensation for the Lockerbie affair, renounce terrorism and accept formal responsibility for what had happened.

Lengthy negotiations over the past year resulted in a compensation settlement three months ago and the end of the international sanctions.

The US demanded still more, however, before it would end its own sanctions.

It insisted on political and economic change in Libya as well as renunciation of the weapons programmes that Washington insisted Tripoli was continuing - although Britain believed such programmes were merely "aspirational".

Reform 'vital'

Libya would also have to help in finally solving questions about Lockerbie which had been left unanswered by the trial.

This was no problem for Libya as its rulers knew that basic reform was essential.

Although Colonel Gaddafi himself was deeply suspicious of the necessary reforms, his advisers told him that economic success and diplomatic respectability depended upon them.

Libya had already renounced terrorism and even the colonel had to face the fact that stagnation in the Libyan economy was not just the result of sanctions but had much to do with public economic inefficiency.

Domestic pressures, not least an unsuccessful Islamist insurgency at the end of the 1990s, meant that political change was vital, too.

Economic interests

Last year, a new prime minister, Shukri Ghanem, an economist, was appointed with an explicit reform agenda.

Behind him - and radical supporters of the colonel - are reformers determined on economic efficiency and political change.

Libya seeks foreign investment, not just in the oil sector, where European companies are rushing for concessions.

Now, Colonel Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, who is close to the reformers, has persuaded his father that human rights abuses must end and that political reform is needed too.

Over the alleged weapons programmes, Libya had, nine months ago, proposed inspections.
So the American acceptance of its offer probably says more about President Bush's success in countering his many domestic critics than about overcoming Libyan resistance to inspections of its WMD programmes.

Poor Gadaffi. He is such a nice guy. Just because he shot down an airliner doesn't make him all bad. It's the Americans fault for not taking the time to understand him. (Did the sarcasm come through?)

never pull low......unless you are

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Come on mikkey, don't do that. It is far more fun to watch them spew out what they have been spoon fed by the american media.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Come on mikkey, don't do that. It is far more fun to watch them spew out what they have been spoon fed by the american media.

As opposed to you believing what you are spoon fed by the British media?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

As opposed to you believing what you are spoon fed by the British media?

Right, because living in Canada makes it obvious I only listen to one national media source and I have chosen that to be the British one.

If I have to spell out my point for you, I guess I will. It was very funny to watch many an american poster on this thread only repeat what the american media is reporting about the subject. Many don't seem to realize there are other options available. Both in news media and in ways to look at a situation.

[Gravitymaster 0]

You don't really believe that do you?