AggieDave 6 #76 December 31, 2003 QuoteDon't get me wrong, I'm not saying suicide is an answer. I'm just saying it's not selfish. It is desperation. Anyone that's been there, understands that. Anyone that hasn't, just has a hard time understanding. As told to me once, a while back when I had serious problems, "why can't you just be happy?" If only it was that easy.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #77 December 31, 2003 This is addressed to those that believe in God and a judgement day. The only being that can judge a person's culpability is God. And He is a most merciful and loving God. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hooked 0 #78 December 31, 2003 Michele, You keep touching our hearts, I'm so glad you are here to do that for us! I love you, but I haven't even met youChute, we all mourn the loss of your friend and my heart goes out to you and all her family. I have definitely had some bad times/feelings myself......selfish.... I don't think enters into it, it's just to end the pain. Jan -------------------------------------- Sometimes we're just being Humans.....But we're always Human Beings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cindee 0 #79 December 31, 2003 My brother took his life at the age of 22. This was an act of desperation, not selfishness. He was a Vietnam vet and he couldn't handle the atrocites he encountered there. My deepest sympathies go out to Kat's family and friends. __________________________________________________ "If happy little bluebirds fly above the rainbow, why oh why can't I?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pick 0 #80 December 31, 2003 QuoteThis is addressed to those that believe in God and a judgement day. The only being that can judge a person's culpability is God. And He is a most merciful and loving God. Chris Thanks Chris.......well said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #81 December 31, 2003 The error of giving up has enter many of our minds. Why I'm still here is not know. Kat69 didn't seem to have a "family" that was that kind to begin with if that was the response. Circumstances keep coming up for a lot of us and by the "Grace of God go I", for I have no other explaination. I write this as a father 2 teenage daughters and a 2yr old son (playing next to me as I type). Stay here for your friends and loved ones and if a call comes from one of my children with any news, I will be there. I belong to them(I could just do it for me). Bless you Kat, your in our prayers._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #82 December 31, 2003 QuoteMy brother took his life at the age of 22. This was an act of desperation, not selfishness. He was a Vietnam vet and he couldn't handle the atrocites he encountered there. This post, and all the others here, have given the word "selfish" a negative connotation. I think that in itself is a major flaw. I am not suggesting that it should have a positive connotation. I am saying that the word selfish does not inherently mean good or bad. Yes, suicide can be a selfish act. Do you know what the word selfish means? It means making a choice with yourself in mind rather than others. Do you realize what the world would be like if no one considered his own emotions, only those of others? For the moment, I am not referring to suicide - I am simply trying to lift the negative connotation from the word selfish. And yes, I do understand that the opposite world would be just as horrendous - where people care only about their own emotions. All choices can be selfish, selfless, or somewhere in between. A selfish choice can be a wonderful one (the choice to divorce the wife who has cheated on you 15 times but still says she loves you), and a selfless choice can be a horrible one (the choice to donate all of your paycheck to charity, every week, until you starve to death). Certain choices are more justifiably selfish. With regards to suicide, in all cases but one, we have the right to be selfish. We did not ask for life, nor did we ask to live on this earth. We have the right to change that whenever we want, and we don't have an obligation to anyone to endure pain for their sake. The one exception is when you have children - you have started a life and created an obligation for yourself to nurture that life. By ending your life you make it impossible to fulfill that obligation. If anyone thinks the above sounds heartless, it's intended to be - free of emotion that is, laid out logically. But for what it's worth, I have been near suicide before and the only thing that prevented me from the act was the pain I knew it would cause my mother. The desire for the act was entirely selfish, which I say as a statement of virtue. QuoteSuicide is a selfish act. They choose to "punish" the ones that they precieved to have hurt them By the way, catfishhunter, when you say that suicide is a selfish act intended to "punish" others, you negate yourself. If something is intended to affect the emotions (positive or negative) of others, it is done with THEM in mind (selfless). If it is intended to affect your own emotions (positive or negative), it is done with YOU in mind (selfish). You described suicide as a "fuck you" to everyone (as Michele put it) with no legitimate personal desire for escape from pain... which is actually the description of an entirely SELFLESS act...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #83 December 31, 2003 QuoteI'm sitting here crying. Me too.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jessd 0 #84 December 31, 2003 Chute - I am so sorry for your loss. My sympathy goes out to you and her family. Michele - again thank you for trying to express in words what so many of us can not even begin to understand, "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chute 0 #85 December 31, 2003 QuoteIf this is true, this is as sad as it gets. If this is true, Kat69 please rest in peace. If it isn't, it sounds like a serious cry for help. Please reach out. Every life is worth saving. Chris Don't worry chris. I didn't see anything wrong with this post. I threw everyone for a loop. I found her password and loged on her account to tell her friend what happened. I did not think that by doing that it would look like she was playing games or crying out for attention. This IS as sad as it gets. Your post did not offend me or strike a bad cord so to say.Bottomless Beers and Blue Skies! * Brother_Brian * D.S.W.F.S.B. #2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #86 December 31, 2003 QuoteQuoteDon't get me wrong, I'm not saying suicide is an answer. I'm just saying it's not selfish. It is desperation. Anyone that's been there, understands that. Anyone that hasn't, just has a hard time understanding. As told to me once, a while back when I had serious problems, "why can't you just be happy?" If only it was that easy. Oh yeah, I just love the "snap out of it" "encouragements". As far as pain goes - I'd wager to say that the internal *hell* a depressed person goes through every waking second cannot be understood or approximated by someone who've never been depressed. it's not about being sad. Or having a bad week. Or being dumped by a loved one. It's about every second being a struggle, of a mind that screams and pleads and claws. There's no rationality about it. It's the absolute loss of hope and faith. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is adding value to your life. No amount of money, friends, recognition etc is worth anything. The finest meat is ashes on your tongue. Suicide is selfish in a way. But you can only handle that surreal pain and hopelessness for so long. Every second you're pushing it. Sleep, blissful sleep, is the only respite you get. I've been there. Every few years I get a depression. Just happens - didn't ask for it, nothing "bad" happened. It just slips in and take root. I think the pain is different from sorrow. And one definitely cannot "snap out of" either. Chute, you have my full sympathies. I can only wish for strength for you and Kat69s loved ones Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bshl 0 #87 December 31, 2003 Does anybody else get the feeling there are two threads tragically mixed up here? How about starting another one to debate the whole suicide thing and letting this thread serve as a memorial to a departed skydiver? I may have to don my flameproof suit for this observation but it seems that those pointing out the fact that suicide frequenly hurts those left behind are doing a good job of making those who are grieving hurt worse. Here's to Chute and the rest of Kat69's friends and skydiving buddies who are dealing with a difficult time. It's always sad to lose part of our extended "family" regardless the reason. Blue skies and happy landings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sheenster303 0 #88 December 31, 2003 My prayers and thoughts are with you during this time. Blue skies Kat. We'll miss you.I'm so funny I crack my head open! P.M.S. #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #89 December 31, 2003 QuoteDon't worry chris. I didn't see anything wrong with this post. I threw everyone for a loop. I found her password and loged on her account to tell her friend what happened. I did not think that by doing that it would look like she was playing games or crying out for attention. This IS as sad as it gets. Your post did not offend me or strike a bad cord so to say. Thanks Chute. I was horrified when I read your thread, then confused when skygal said she logged on. I wish skygal was right. The point of my "controversial" posts was to ask folks to not be so quick to judge when a newbie shows up and label them a troll. If you think they are a troll, then ignore their posts. But maybe we can give some people a little more of a chance. What Kat did was her decision. Nobody here contributed to it. I will not judge Kat's decision. I will just pray that she has found the peace she was searching for. Blue skies, Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygal3 0 #90 January 1, 2004 I apologize and will keep my nosy thoughts to myself in the future. I guess I thought maybe it was mindygirl/carla60/reed14 returning, or peppermint, etc. I apologize for trying to insinuate kat69 was a troll. But, so it doesn't happen again by anyone else, can someone please explain why she is now invisible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylord 1 #91 January 1, 2004 Good Lord everyone. I'm so sorry to read all of this. U2 wrote a song related to the suicide of INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence, called Stuck in a Moment. "I was unconcious, half asleep, the water is warm 'til you discover how deep...... "I wasn't jumping, for me it was a fall it's a long way down to nothing at all!" Some people think this refers to a joint suicide pact that Bono decided to back out of when he really thought about it. My. I don't even know what to say, aside from the fact I cannot relate to the desperation that would drive someone to such a point. Life is all we have, everything else is a long fall to nothing at all. When it comes to that, you're going to have to push me out that door, and my exit will suck. All of my thoughts, prayers, condolences, and hopes for her friends, loved ones, and to her on this New Year's Eve....... BobBob Marks "-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #92 January 1, 2004 Kate, I pm'd you. Nothing I said had anything to do with your revelations. Have a great new year, Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #93 January 2, 2004 QuoteI may have to don my flameproof suit for this observation but it seems that those pointing out the fact that suicide frequenly hurts those left behind are doing a good job of making those who are grieving hurt worse. I don't think any of my posts make those who hurt hurt more. If I did, I wouldn't post them. I would not intentionally hurt someone who's grieving. Depression, and suicide, do need to be talked about. But starting a thread called "Is suicide selfish?", while likely getting a flame icon, really doesn't seem right, either, in balance. So if someone posts about suicide, and then the thread turns to a point where people are openly discussing/reading about depression, then I can only think it's a good thing, in the end. I wish we didn't need a death to discuss it, because maybe had we discussed it earlier, Kat wouldn't have chosen that solution. But we can't change what's past, can we? We can only look forward, and start to move there, too. (And BTW, someone pm'd me and said they thought one of my posts was advocating suicide. Let me state EMPHATICALLY that I do not see suicide as a good solution. And should anyone ever need to talk, I'm here, and so are many, many others.) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #94 January 2, 2004 QuoteBut, so it doesn't happen again by anyone else, can someone please explain why she is now invisible? Because I made her so. This is not important. Focus on the issue at hand, let people grief with dignity. Condolences. Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alanab 0 #95 January 2, 2004 i got news this morning about kat. my condolences go out to her friends and family. she was a sweet girl and many will miss her. blues forever kat. RIP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chute 0 #96 January 4, 2004 I just got back this morning. The funeral was yesterday. It was a nice service. Her whole family was there and 6 of us from the military were paul barriers. It was very hard seeing her in the casket. It did not even look like her. I did say her whole family were there. I did forget to say her mother did a no show. I wanted to have words with her and tell her it is not what a person does that make the person. It is who she is that determines what she does. Don't love or hate what they do. Love or hate them and she was loved by everyone she worked with in the Navy.Bottomless Beers and Blue Skies! * Brother_Brian * D.S.W.F.S.B. #2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpergirl 0 #97 January 4, 2004 I'm so sorry to hear of your loss... our thoughts and prayers are with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hooked 0 #98 January 4, 2004 My heart goes out to you Chute. It is very difficult to lose a friend. Did I read the post correctly, that her Mother was a no-show? I find that very sad. Maybe she just couldn't bear it. J -------------------------------------- Sometimes we're just being Humans.....But we're always Human Beings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #99 January 4, 2004 How very, very, very sad. I'm so sorry, Chute. Please know that I'm sending my love and heartfelt prayers to you, Kat's spirit and the rest of her family/loved ones. My best friend died in a car crash 5 years ago, and I agree about seeing someone that you love in a casket. It is very disturbing/traumatizing. Once again, I am so very, very sorry for your loss. She seemed like a sweet, young lady, and she will be missed. (So young. ) PLEASE PM me anytime if you need to talk. Sincerely, ROSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taln1rigr 0 #100 January 4, 2004 Damn, I'm so, so very sorry Chute. I can't send enough love & vibes over this computer to you & your wife, who sounded like her closer friends, but also to her other friends & family. I liked Kat bunches ... she had a lot of spunk ... I like spunk. Wow, I can't believe she's really gone. I just want to cry. I had so much fun with her on this post ... wow. Damn, I hate stuff like this ... I wish she were still here. Good-bye Kat ... You're such a beautiful person & will be sorely missed ... Picturesque Blue Skies Forever For You Kat ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
