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t2.3aero

Gear setup/checks to avoid horseshoe/pc in tow

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Hello everyone,

Im a student that is soaking up as much knowledge as possible... through AFF, SIM, dropzone.com, malfuction videos, ect... i have been doing my research on this topic but having trouble finding some specific answers. I would like to know some things before i go through the packing class to make sure my instructor covers. im interested in things like PC kill line length... cocking the PC, bridle routing, bridle exposure, pull out PC versus throw out, and with a throw out PC advice on trying to manually extract the pin. I am just more or less trying to build a manual HOW TO AVOID entanglement issues ( our nightmare). im sorry if i bring up any repeat threads. Thank you
Some people say "The sky is the limit" .... those people must not skydive..

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pc, bridal and d-bag are all part of the container system.

Use the MFG recommended/supplied parts and follow their packing procedure.
most of which are supplied free of charge (as far as I know)

this is an interesting video on packing your PC to help prevent a horseshoe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io

I use Germain's method to pack my PC, and show it to others.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions, but its a start ;)
DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

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Worrying about things like trying to pull your main pin with your hand while in freefall are going to get you into trouble. I am sure your instructor will show you a fine way of packing, just pay attention. There are only a couple things that MUST be done in a packjob, the rest can actually be pretty sloppy and not be "dangerous" although you might have a higher likelihood of a malfunction.
Ask your instructor to show you how to inspect the closing loop tension, this is probably the number one thing to prevent a horseshoe. Bridle routing is more of a container design issue, rather than packing. (You can route it like shit but if you just do it like the manual says you are fine)

Don't worry about pull vs throw out, and don't worry about collapsible PCs, they will show you how to do it. There is a small window that tells you if it is cocked.

Anyways, don't sweat it, start packing and when you get it down it will be easier to ask questions or read things online and understand what they are saying.

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I am just more or less trying to build a manual



Don't. Your instructor, the DZ, and the USPA have already done that. If you pay each one of them some money, they'll share it with you.

Until you have a license, contain your learning to the A license program at your chosen DZ. They have a complete program in place, and you need to focus on that, and not whatever you can 'research' on the internet. Don't muddy the waters of that program by coming up with your own ideas. Learn to become a skydiver in real life.

The internet is a shitty place for primary training. It's barely passable for remedial training, and it works out OK as a place to shoot the shit.

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pc, bridal and d-bag are all part of the container system.

Use the MFG recommended/supplied parts and follow their packing procedure.
most of which are supplied free of charge (as far as I know)

this is an interesting video on packing your PC to help prevent a horseshoe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io

I use Germain's method to pack my PC, and show it to others.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions, but its a start ;)



this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridal (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).

ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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im interested in things like PC kill line length.



When cocked, the kill line should allow just a little slack so that the limiter tapes down the center of the pilot chute take the load instead. In the d-bag the base of the kill line should be a little distance from hitting the grommet in the top of the bag. A couple inches distance is fine. When the pilot chute is deflated, the handle of the pilot chute shouldn't be slamming into the base of the pilot chute. That means the kill line is getting too short. That may happen over time with a spectra kill line, but shouldn't happen if it is vectran.

But it's really a bit early for that sort of stuff with your 3 jumps. You may get some flak for trying to learn too much too soon. Still, nothing wrong with trying to "read ahead" even if you don't understand it all. As long as when you actually go out to skydive, you pay attention to what is needed in the next few dives and don't get distracted by all the long-run stuff.

That's my 2 cents for the evening.

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Thanks a lot for the constuctive criticism... i am trying to learn this sport the PROPER way. I have heard one of the hardest things to do is be patient which i am finding to be very true :) I am a person that needs to hear things several times before it sticks so it helps me to have the basic theroy and operation in the back of my head as an instructor is showing me things hands on. also i was a little concerned with how strict all DZ's for a packing/ rig check procedure.... maybe a smaller DZ has a slightly different way to pack item X versus a bigger DZ that has had more experience or a new technology...Again thank you all for your 2cents and i dont mind a little flack ;) Merry Christmas... ( i got a free tandem jump for a present just now in Florida on vactation next month)

Some people say "The sky is the limit" .... those people must not skydive..

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridal (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


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ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Don't try to build your own manual. It's already been done.

If you want stuff to study over the winter, try the owner's manual for the rig your DZ uses as student gear. It's available for free on the manufacturer's website.

For more general info on the gear and packing, try the FAA Rigger Handbook. While a lot of it is about reserves, repair procedures and materials, there's a reasonable amount of general info about the components and how they work, and how to pack a main. (and if you are as much of a detail weenie as you sound, you'll enjoy the reserve, materials and repair procedures as well).

Davelepka was right (as usual) about learning over the internet. Unless you have a rig in front of you, most of this won't make any sense.

But because I'm bored...

PC kill line length - The tapes inside the PC should be tight when the PC is cocked. If the kill line is tight and the tapes are loose, then either the PC isn't fully cocked, or the kill line is too short (shrunk).

Cocking the PC - Stretch the bridle tight (I stand on it with my legs spread) and pull on the handle. The D-bag will be pulled toward (but not quite up to) the link on top of the main canopy. If the grommet on the D-bag is tight against the link on the main, check to see if the kill line is too short.

Bridle routing (BTW-bonus points for spelling it correctly in the OP) - Different rigs have slightly different routings, RTFM. Make sure there is slack between the pin and where it comes out from the main pack tray (off the D-bag). THere have been a few incidents recently where the bridle was tight "above" the pin and either couldn't pull the pin or shoved the pin through the bridle and locked it. Riggerrob is doing some tests to replicate it and see exactly what is happening.

Bridle exposure - As little as possible, follow mfg instructions on routing and you should be ok. "Freefly Friendly" rigs should have a completely covered bridle path. My personal rig used to have a short length exposed between the side flap and the BOC pouch. When I had the BOC pouch replaced last year, I also had a "flap mod" done that gives me a small pocket on the bottom flap to tuck that little bit of bridle into.

Pull out vs Throw out - That has been discussed to death. I've never packed a pull out, let alone used one so...
Search is your friend:P

Trying to extract the pin on a throw out - I presume you mean having a PC-In-Tow situation and reaching around behind to pull the bridle/pin loose. Short answer - I wouldn't.
Slightly longer answer - During a high-speed mal, such as PC in tow, you burn altitude really fast. Doing something like trying to reach all the way around your back to try and find the bridle or pin and then trying to pull it (you have really bad leverage) is going to use a lot of time (and altitude). It would be way too easy to spend just a little too much time on that.
The standard "Try twice and go silver" doesn't take into account the "I've almost got it, I'll have it in just a seco..Thud" mentality that would come into effect while reaching around behind you.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wow again thanks a lot for all the info and criticism. i will be studying the handbook in my free time, and trying to keep my internet training to a minimum.. and thanks for being bored and taking the time to throw out some of those answers and info... and did i hear right that you have never used a throw out pilot chute? i thought that was the norm...
Some people say "The sky is the limit" .... those people must not skydive..

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... I'm interested in things like PC kill line length... cocking the PC, bridle routing, ... pull out PC versus throw out... Thank you

"

.........................................................................

I have only seen collapsible pilot-chutes - on student rigs - at one DZ. Chances are, your DZ follows industry norms and does not issue collapsible pilot-chutes to students, ergo, why worry about a piece of equipment that is not normally installed on student gear???

Similarly, I have never seen a pull-out on a student rig, so why worry???

Rob Warner Static-Line Jump-Master since 1982
Instructor Assisted Deployment Instructor since 1984
Tandem Instructor since 1986
Tandem Examiner since 2008
etc.

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridal (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


Quote


ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.


i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridal and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridle (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


Quote


ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.


i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridle and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???


Try it... put your rig on, have someone pop the pin and pull the bag up, see which is easier to get to. Im willing to bet that your PC would be easier to grab than your bridle. Keep in mind that main out of the container will cause the flaps to be in a place they're not usually at during pull time.

The BG method of packing the PC is so the drag of the bridle coming out will pull not cause the PC to lock in the pouch, and if the drag is enough on the bridle, it could extract the PC.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridle (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


Quote


ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.


i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridle and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???


Try it... put your rig on, have someone pop the pin and pull the bag up, see which is easier to get to. Im willing to bet that your PC would be easier to grab than your bridle. Keep in mind that main out of the container will cause the flaps to be in a place they're not usually at during pull time.

The BG method of packing the PC is so the drag of the bridle coming out will pull not cause the PC to lock in the pouch, and if the drag is enough on the bridle, it could extract the PC.


I think he would have to be in a hanging harness to do that correct.
When the bag is out it will most likely deploy the canopy.
Im not sure you even can reach the handle if you are under canopy. I would think the handle will be higher up when the canopy is out.

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridle (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


Quote


ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.


i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridle and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???


Try it... put your rig on, have someone pop the pin and pull the bag up, see which is easier to get to. Im willing to bet that your PC would be easier to grab than your bridle. Keep in mind that main out of the container will cause the flaps to be in a place they're not usually at during pull time.

The BG method of packing the PC is so the drag of the bridle coming out will pull not cause the PC to lock in the pouch, and if the drag is enough on the bridle, it could extract the PC.


I think he would have to be in a hanging harness to do that correct.
When the bag is out it will most likely deploy the canopy.
Im not sure you even can reach the handle if you are under canopy. I would think the handle will be higher up when the canopy is out.


You don't need to be in a hanging harness, the main might not deploy, watch THIS The main is just trailing, causing the horseshoe, and doesn't deploy till the PC is extracted.

If the PC gets locked in the pouch, then you pretty much have to try like hell to get it out, and execute your EP's. (Chopping, clearing the risers, and firing your reserve past the ball of shit you're trailing)

The BG method keeps the chance of the PC getting locked in the pouch.


Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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this is the method i use for the pc. even if you cant find your handle, you can still get the pilot chute out if you can get a hold of the bridal (but this can cause another horseshoe around you if you aren't careful).



You think that getting ahold of your bridle is going to be any easier than finding your handle? Most of it is inside the pouch, with the PC... the rest is under flaps.

Mid air rigging could get you killed, or worse, someone else.


Quote


ps: dont listen to me, i dont know shit, yet!!!;)



No comment.


i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridal and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???


Note under the video, posted by BG:

"Hi "sweatykev01",

Unless you are really high and very experienced, leave your hook knife in the pocket unless there is no other option. Try throwing the pilot-chute first. If you can't get it out, then just chop. There is a pretty good chance it will clear anyway. Hopefully you helped an old person across the street that day and earned some karma points..."

He says pull the PC, if it doesn't come out, chop.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridal and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???



Mitch, talk to me when you get here. I did not teach you that and I'll want to know who did. There are some things you'll need to know.

BTW, it's bridle. I man it's not like we asking you to get married, right?
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.



If you had sufficient altitude and made two attempts at the handle without success..., and could feel the bridle coming out boc it might be worth giving it one good yank before initiating EP's. (Again, given sufficient altitude)
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.



If you had sufficient altitude and made two attempts at the handle without success..., and could feel the bridle coming out boc it might be worth giving it one good yank before initiating EP's. (Again, given sufficient altitude)



The OP has 3 jumps... Would you recommend mid air rigging to someone that barely knows how to pull for himself?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex



BTW, thats not a premature deployment, thats an out of sequence deployment. (even if it is premature) :P
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.



If you had sufficient altitude and made two attempts at the handle without success..., and could feel the bridle coming out boc it might be worth giving it one good yank before initiating EP's. (Again, given sufficient altitude)



The OP has 3 jumps... Would you recommend mid air rigging to someone that barely knows how to pull for himself?



I would want them to have the situational knowledge.
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

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I would want them to have the situational knowledge.



And you would be wrong.

In a PC in tow, nobody has situational awareness, because the situation is behind them. Why is your PC towing? Is it not cocked? Is it something simple? Or has the pin stabbed through the bridle? Is the bridle half-hitched around a flap, or some other such, NON-RECOVERABLE situation?

The reason that the rule is 'two tries, two seconds' is because you don't know what's going except that you are still in freefall when you already decieded it was time to end the freefall. Many jumpers have fought that same losing battle right into the ground because 'one more yank' was going to get it. Just one more.....

The situational awareness that every jumper needs to know is 'two tries, two seconds', end of story. Anytime you try to add the 'what if's', you start down the slippery slope that turns into 'five or six tries in about 10 or 12 seconds' which is followed by a low reserve deployment without enough altitude for inflation.

If you're going to invent stupid rules for yourself, please avoid sharing them with others, especially newbies who don't know any better.

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