riggerpaul 1 #76 December 15, 2010 Quoteflag them up to the Safety and training officer and DZO for every dz in the us! And how would I do that? BTW - The local S&TA and DZO have been informed, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #77 December 15, 2010 Since there exists a good way to install seals (Poynter's ) why is it that there are so many riggers out there doing things so differently? Is this a case of re-inventing the wheel?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #78 December 15, 2010 QuoteSince there exists a good way to install seals (Poynter's ) why is it that there are so many riggers out there doing things so differently? Is this a case of re-inventing the wheel? In my old, black cover, Poynter manual, there are several methods shown. Interestingly, the method I mentioned, where the seal is not between the pin and the closing loop, is shown, except that he didn't put a seal on it. He mentions that it might be used to seal a main parachute. Anyway, the sketches in that manual have pin and cone systems. Not much like the closing loops we use now. In my more modern, fancy multicolor covered copy of Volume II, the picture (on page 297) of sealing what looks like an old vector is pretty lousy. In fact, looking at that picture is seems entirely possible that it could be interpreted as suggesting that the seal thread is put through the closing loop. That lousy picture may be where the whole idea came from in the first place. Looking at the 2005 Parachute Rigger Handbook (FAA-H-8083-17), the written description (pages 5-30 - 5-32) seems to be the way I have seen rigs sealed, but the photos, specifically Figures 5-67 and 5-68, are confusing to me, and do not seem to me to match the written information. Those photos show bits of the red seal thread in places I just haven't figured out how they get there. So, I cannot agree that there is any clear guidance on how to seal a rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #79 December 15, 2010 When the loft - in Perris Valley, California - caught skydivers pencil-packing, they charged them for every time a rigger's signature appeared on their card. It did not matter if the rigger - in question - even SAW the rig that year, he still got paid! I imported a similar policy to Pitt Meadows when I moved north. One sneaky skydiver tried to circumvent the policy by taking his reserve to a part-time rigger, but when the part-time rigger brought the rig to me for a complicated repair (replacing plastic in reserve pin cover), I got paid for every time my name appeared on his card! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #80 December 15, 2010 Quote>Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on >paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a package of packing data cards ($12 for 50) and just updating the info on the card once every six months? Or just ordering a seal press and some seals? (around $70) .......................................................................... Laziness! Frugality! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites liftedtitan 0 #81 December 15, 2010 I'm just curious, how did they collect? What was stopping them from just not paying and leaving?Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #82 December 15, 2010 QuoteI'm just curious, how did they collect? What was stopping them from just not paying and leaving? ......................................................................... The next time they bring their rig to the loft, management refuses to return it until all bills are paid. Or manifest could simply tack the additional cost of rigging fees onto their jump bill, then they cannot jump until all their bills are paid. If they want to argue the additional fees, they will have to admit - in court - that they forged a federal document. Hint: the third time the FAA caught Steve Magnusson forging his reserve packing data card, they fined him $500! Which was nothing compared to the shit storm that (rigger) "Dead Ted" got dragged through. "Dead Ted" may not have seen the rig for several years, but his (forged) signature was on top of burn holes and cracked plastic stiffeners and the DPRE dragged Ted through hell, until Magnusson admitted his forgery. After that foolishness, several SoCal riggers refused to have anything to do with Magnusson! If anyone had died, "Dead Ted" probably would have had to waste $10,000 of his own money (in legal fees) to prove that he had nothing to do with the forgery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites liftedtitan 0 #83 December 15, 2010 I see, thanks for the clarification.Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #84 December 15, 2010 QuoteWhen the loft - in Perris Valley, California - caught skydivers pencil-packing, they charged them for every time a rigger's signature appeared on their card. It did not matter if the rigger - in question - even SAW the rig that year, he still got paid! Thanks Rob!! That's a great solution! I wish I'd thought of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #85 December 15, 2010 Quote Riggers - what do YOU do? I have a rubber stamp with my certificate and seal numbers. It makes pencil packing fairly obvious to whoever is checking gear, as long as they bother to look at more than just the last line. It can't prevent pencil packing, and may not even be caught, but the risk is there, so someone who is heading off to a boogie or visiting another DZ and who needs a repack before they go is a lot less likely to pencil pack if they think they may get caught and not be allowed to jump their rig. I started using the rubber stamp after someone brought me a rig for a repack, admitted to pencil packing in my name, then complained about how another local rigger uses a rubber stamp, so he can't pencil pack if he gets repacks from that guy. I had a rubber stamp made up in time to use for that repack. Thanks for the idea, buddy!"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites agentsmith413 0 #86 December 15, 2010 it may have been discussed in this thread but i dont feel like reading every single reply but, if the AAD did its job could the reserve still open being that the closing loop is cut? just curious. not that it makes it ok that this occurred in the pack job but i just wanted to know if this would be pretty much certain death even with an AADLife is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #87 December 15, 2010 Yes. The reserve tray should open right up if the loop is cut. Next chance you get, have a rigger show you how the AAD works. If you have on on staff at the dropzone, chances are he has an open container for you to look at.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #88 December 16, 2010 Quote Quote Riggers - what do YOU do? I have a rubber stamp with my certificate and seal numbers. It makes pencil packing fairly obvious to whoever is checking gear, as long as they bother to look at more than just the last line. It can't prevent pencil packing, and may not even be caught, but the risk is there, so someone who is heading off to a boogie or visiting another DZ and who needs a repack before they go is a lot less likely to pencil pack if they think they may get caught and not be allowed to jump their rig. I started using the rubber stamp after someone brought me a rig for a repack, admitted to pencil packing in my name, then complained about how another local rigger uses a rubber stamp, so he can't pencil pack if he gets repacks from that guy. I had a rubber stamp made up in time to use for that repack. Thanks for the idea, buddy! I have been using a stamp for a few years now. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firemedic 7 #89 December 16, 2010 QuoteQuote>Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on >paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a package of packing data cards ($12 for 50) and just updating the info on the card once every six months? Or just ordering a seal press and some seals? (around $70) .......................................................................... This is something that has crossed my mind a few times. All someone would have to do is buy a seal press, dies with my symbol and a spool of thread. This is a topic that could be brought up at PIA and with Para Gear. Maybe suggest Para Gear require a copy of the riggers Airman Certificate before they will fill an order for dies with a seal symbol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #90 December 16, 2010 QuoteAll someone would have to do is buy a seal press, dies with my symbol and a spool of thread. If someone is going to go to the trouble and expense of purchasing a seal press and dies, they really have no need for it to match the seal number of the rigger who did the last pack job. Making up some random name and seal number works just as well, you don't have to try to match the handwriting/signature, and it carries less risk of being caught."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #91 December 16, 2010 So when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #92 December 16, 2010 QuoteSo when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal? Yes... but most DZ's I've been to (when checking someone's rig) would not consider it usable at their DZ without a seal that matches the pack data card... even though they may not be required to be there. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #93 December 16, 2010 QuoteSince there exists a good way to install seals (Poynter's ) why is it that there are so many riggers out there doing things so differently? Is this a case of re-inventing the wheel? Probably... but even Poynter (and more recently Sandy) indicates that there are many techniques and that manuals often say, in effect, "in the usual manner". FAA-H-8083-17 Parachute Riggers Handbook (Sandy) describes basically the technique I showed as #1, with a knot in the thread that ends up inside the seal... but also defers to manufacturer's instructions. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
liftedtitan 0 #81 December 15, 2010 I'm just curious, how did they collect? What was stopping them from just not paying and leaving?Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #82 December 15, 2010 QuoteI'm just curious, how did they collect? What was stopping them from just not paying and leaving? ......................................................................... The next time they bring their rig to the loft, management refuses to return it until all bills are paid. Or manifest could simply tack the additional cost of rigging fees onto their jump bill, then they cannot jump until all their bills are paid. If they want to argue the additional fees, they will have to admit - in court - that they forged a federal document. Hint: the third time the FAA caught Steve Magnusson forging his reserve packing data card, they fined him $500! Which was nothing compared to the shit storm that (rigger) "Dead Ted" got dragged through. "Dead Ted" may not have seen the rig for several years, but his (forged) signature was on top of burn holes and cracked plastic stiffeners and the DPRE dragged Ted through hell, until Magnusson admitted his forgery. After that foolishness, several SoCal riggers refused to have anything to do with Magnusson! If anyone had died, "Dead Ted" probably would have had to waste $10,000 of his own money (in legal fees) to prove that he had nothing to do with the forgery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #83 December 15, 2010 I see, thanks for the clarification.Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #84 December 15, 2010 QuoteWhen the loft - in Perris Valley, California - caught skydivers pencil-packing, they charged them for every time a rigger's signature appeared on their card. It did not matter if the rigger - in question - even SAW the rig that year, he still got paid! Thanks Rob!! That's a great solution! I wish I'd thought of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #85 December 15, 2010 Quote Riggers - what do YOU do? I have a rubber stamp with my certificate and seal numbers. It makes pencil packing fairly obvious to whoever is checking gear, as long as they bother to look at more than just the last line. It can't prevent pencil packing, and may not even be caught, but the risk is there, so someone who is heading off to a boogie or visiting another DZ and who needs a repack before they go is a lot less likely to pencil pack if they think they may get caught and not be allowed to jump their rig. I started using the rubber stamp after someone brought me a rig for a repack, admitted to pencil packing in my name, then complained about how another local rigger uses a rubber stamp, so he can't pencil pack if he gets repacks from that guy. I had a rubber stamp made up in time to use for that repack. Thanks for the idea, buddy!"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentsmith413 0 #86 December 15, 2010 it may have been discussed in this thread but i dont feel like reading every single reply but, if the AAD did its job could the reserve still open being that the closing loop is cut? just curious. not that it makes it ok that this occurred in the pack job but i just wanted to know if this would be pretty much certain death even with an AADLife is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #87 December 15, 2010 Yes. The reserve tray should open right up if the loop is cut. Next chance you get, have a rigger show you how the AAD works. If you have on on staff at the dropzone, chances are he has an open container for you to look at.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #88 December 16, 2010 Quote Quote Riggers - what do YOU do? I have a rubber stamp with my certificate and seal numbers. It makes pencil packing fairly obvious to whoever is checking gear, as long as they bother to look at more than just the last line. It can't prevent pencil packing, and may not even be caught, but the risk is there, so someone who is heading off to a boogie or visiting another DZ and who needs a repack before they go is a lot less likely to pencil pack if they think they may get caught and not be allowed to jump their rig. I started using the rubber stamp after someone brought me a rig for a repack, admitted to pencil packing in my name, then complained about how another local rigger uses a rubber stamp, so he can't pencil pack if he gets repacks from that guy. I had a rubber stamp made up in time to use for that repack. Thanks for the idea, buddy! I have been using a stamp for a few years now. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firemedic 7 #89 December 16, 2010 QuoteQuote>Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on >paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a package of packing data cards ($12 for 50) and just updating the info on the card once every six months? Or just ordering a seal press and some seals? (around $70) .......................................................................... This is something that has crossed my mind a few times. All someone would have to do is buy a seal press, dies with my symbol and a spool of thread. This is a topic that could be brought up at PIA and with Para Gear. Maybe suggest Para Gear require a copy of the riggers Airman Certificate before they will fill an order for dies with a seal symbol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #90 December 16, 2010 QuoteAll someone would have to do is buy a seal press, dies with my symbol and a spool of thread. If someone is going to go to the trouble and expense of purchasing a seal press and dies, they really have no need for it to match the seal number of the rigger who did the last pack job. Making up some random name and seal number works just as well, you don't have to try to match the handwriting/signature, and it carries less risk of being caught."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #91 December 16, 2010 So when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #92 December 16, 2010 QuoteSo when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal? Yes... but most DZ's I've been to (when checking someone's rig) would not consider it usable at their DZ without a seal that matches the pack data card... even though they may not be required to be there. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #93 December 16, 2010 QuoteSince there exists a good way to install seals (Poynter's ) why is it that there are so many riggers out there doing things so differently? Is this a case of re-inventing the wheel? Probably... but even Poynter (and more recently Sandy) indicates that there are many techniques and that manuals often say, in effect, "in the usual manner". FAA-H-8083-17 Parachute Riggers Handbook (Sandy) describes basically the technique I showed as #1, with a knot in the thread that ends up inside the seal... but also defers to manufacturer's instructions. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
BrianM 1 #90 December 16, 2010 QuoteAll someone would have to do is buy a seal press, dies with my symbol and a spool of thread. If someone is going to go to the trouble and expense of purchasing a seal press and dies, they really have no need for it to match the seal number of the rigger who did the last pack job. Making up some random name and seal number works just as well, you don't have to try to match the handwriting/signature, and it carries less risk of being caught."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #91 December 16, 2010 So when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #92 December 16, 2010 QuoteSo when I get my rig from my rigger I can remove the seal? Yes... but most DZ's I've been to (when checking someone's rig) would not consider it usable at their DZ without a seal that matches the pack data card... even though they may not be required to be there. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #93 December 16, 2010 QuoteSince there exists a good way to install seals (Poynter's ) why is it that there are so many riggers out there doing things so differently? Is this a case of re-inventing the wheel? Probably... but even Poynter (and more recently Sandy) indicates that there are many techniques and that manuals often say, in effect, "in the usual manner". FAA-H-8083-17 Parachute Riggers Handbook (Sandy) describes basically the technique I showed as #1, with a knot in the thread that ends up inside the seal... but also defers to manufacturer's instructions. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
