Reserve total packed

[billvon 2,394]

>Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on
>paragear and pencil packing their own reserve?

Who's going to stop someone from ordering a package of packing data cards ($12 for 50) and just updating the info on the card once every six months? Or just ordering a seal press and some seals? (around $70)

There are plenty of ways to 'fool' the system. The lead seal isn't really proof of much, beyond that someone who knows how to close a reserve and use a seal press once closed the reserve. At best it prevents someone completely clueless from pencil packing.

[riggerpaul 1]

Why do we care at all that the rig was legal?

If someone pencil packs and goes in on it, why do we care?

Sure, at some level, we care because someone died for something really stupid. But most of the world says that about any skydiver death.

Now, maybe for rental gear, but when jumping your own personal rig? Should we care?

There are many ways for a rig to become non-airworthy without any damage to the seal or packing data card.

The final determination of airworthiness rests with the person jumping the rig, not the rigger who inspected it 179 days ago (fill in an appropriate number for people who don't have a 180 day cycle, of course).

Who actually checks the credentials of the rigger who repacked the rig anyway? (I can't remember anyone ever asking me to see my certificate.) How do you really know he was a rigger in the first place?

If a properly certificated rigger sealed the rig the way this thread is discussing, clearly, all the "legal" in the world won't save to poor guy who pulls that ripcord.

So what's the point anyway? Except for people who take the time and make the effort to learn how to do it for themselves, we're all just going on blind faith, aren't we?

[fcajump 153]

I was taught slightly different...

Both through the seal, then one around the pin tip and back through the seal.

This has two threads from the ripcord to the seal, and only one to the pin... Therefore more likely to stay with the ripcord. However, even if both sides to the ripcord did break, the seal is not threaded through the loop.

However... I don't remember ever being told not to go through the loop until this came up...

Jerry - good rigger forum discussion idea for you: "Rigging lessons learned on DZ.com"

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 153]

For ME, I also feel that the rig indicates that the rigger on record (matching seal letters) was the last one in there.

Not 100%, but keeps honest people honest.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerpaul 1]

Nice pictures! I wish I could do as good. How did you draw them?

[riggerpaul 1]

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For ME, I also feel that the rig indicates that the rigger on record (matching seal letters) was the last one in there.

Not 100%, but keeps honest people honest.

JW

Honest people honest ? Maybe.

I recently did a rig where the owner 6 months ago pencil packed with my identification.

Should I care? I didn't do the work. My logbook and the loft logbook easily confirm that. The signature isn't mine, again, easy to check.

So, do I care? Why?

[JohnRich 4]

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I too, cannot envision any way this was just "accidentally" done - as it seems it would take some real attention/effort to actually route the thread through the closing loop, under the seated pin. Have you checked with the rigger that packed this to find out if this is: 1) His/her normal practice?

And if that is the way this rigger does all his reserve seals, then every single one of them needs to be checked before those rig owner's next jumps. There might be great danger lurking out there, on dozens of rigs, or more. Someone who knows the rigger in question needs to take the initiative to review all of his work, and to notify all of his customers.

[fcajump 153]

MS Paint ... I don't get them fancy graphic tools...
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 153]

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So what's the point anyway? Except for people who take the time and make the effort to learn how to do it for themselves, we're all just going on blind faith, aren't we?

Sad to say, but I suspect that most of us would quietly admit that this is a major reason we became riggers... So that we could best ensure that our own rig is airworthy from top to bottom... It had little to do with packing for anyone else.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerpaul 1]

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Quote

So what's the point anyway? Except for people who take the time and make the effort to learn how to do it for themselves, we're all just going on blind faith, aren't we?

Sad to say, but I suspect that most of us would quietly admit that this is a major reason we became riggers... So that we could best ensure that our own rig is airworthy from top to bottom... It had little to do with packing for anyone else.

JW

I apologize for being so philosophical.

I should be drinking when I write this shit.

When I am drinking, I usually give up before posting.

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So what's the point anyway? Except for people who take the time and make the effort to learn how to do it for themselves, we're all just going on blind faith, aren't we?

Sad to say, but I suspect that most of us would quietly admit that this is a major reason we became riggers... So that we could best ensure that our own rig is airworthy from top to bottom... It had little to do with packing for anyone else.

JW

I apologize for being so philosophical.

I should be drinking when I write this shit.

When I am drinking, I usually give up before posting.

Not at all .

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[fcajump 153]

PS - attached includes a diagram including RiggerPaul's description (center where I was asking him "this?")

PPS - one problem I faced early was that I either made the loop around the pin too loose (easily slipped over the pin tip), or too tight (broke the loop during normal handling).

Solution: Back the pin off by about 50%, then crimp it with the thread tight (remember seal near the top of the pin). Then reset the pin correctly. That leaves me a nice slack loop that still must be broken for the pin to clear the grommet.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Jim,

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Terry - good rigger forum discussion idea for you: "Rigging lessons learned on DZ.com"

I fixed it for you.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Paul,

Quote

I recently did a rig where the owner 6 months ago pencil packed with my identification.

Over the years a good number of people ( some even friends ) have 'fudged' my name onto the packing card.

I would tell them to just open the phone book & stab, use that name & make up a rigger's number; it keeps me out of it you go in.

JerryBaumchen

[mark 102]

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For ME, I also feel that the rig indicates that the rigger on record (matching seal letters) was the last one in there.

Not 100%, but keeps honest people honest.

JW

There is no FAR requirement for riggers to put their seal symbols on packing data cards.

Mark

[fcajump 153]

But it is common practice, and one I would suggest be promoted.

Just my $.02
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[pchapman 261]

This has been a great thread to see that people do not all route the seal thread exactly the same way as shown in Poynters, that there's some flexibility in the field.

A big difference is that in the Poynter's method, 'both sides' of the whole loop of seal thread go through the lead seal, versus putting just one side of the loop through the seal.

I've used both, although the former does add strength due to more connections, making it perhaps less likely for a thread to break and leave the seal dangling loose.

I've long stopped using any sort of knot. I don't think the thread even needs to go in one hole and then loop back through the other. If it is through the seal, and the seal is well crimped, the thread will break long before it can pull out of the seal.

Some routings do make it easier however to snip off the thread at one side of the seal (rather than at opposite ends), or to snug the whole thread up to the desired amount of slack.

[mjosparky 3]

Some rigs back in the day had a fold of say ¼” Type IV on the last closing flap to the side of the pin. I think it started with the military. (see attachment) Some older military rigs also had a second data card pocket inside the container for a duplicate card.

Sparky


http://www.flickr.com/photos/53825637@N06/5259635053/

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Unstable 8]

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: Some rigs back in the day had a fold of say ¼” Type IV on the last closing flap to the side of the pin. I think it started with the military. (see attachment) Some older military rigs also had a second data card pocket inside the container for a duplicate card.

I packed a 1997 Navy back about 2 weeks ago for an aerobatic pilot and the container had a duplicate card in the container ~ and I've never seen that piece of tape to hold the seal away from the pin ~ that's actually a pretty good idea!

=========Shaun ==========

[fcajump 153]

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Some rigs back in the day had a fold of say ¼” Type IV on the last closing flap to the side of the pin. I think it started with the military. (see attachment) Some older military rigs also had a second data card pocket inside the container for a duplicate card.

While I've never see that, I like it.

BTW - While I put a lot of stock in Poynter's manual, it is not law... and even in your graphic he presents three methods depending on seal / no-seal / dual pin... etc... I also find his notes interesting... "Sealing should be specified by the manufacturer", and half of their instructions say "see Poynters"

Finally - while I do not find it necessary to knot the thread in the seal, I do find that a simple overhand knot after the two sides exit the seal (see my previous graphic method #1) helps hold the seal where I want it on the thread while I'm pressing it.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[billvon 2,394]

>If someone pencil packs and goes in on it, why do we care?

As long as it's clear that the jumper in question was the pencil packer, then no problem. The only issue I have with it is when a pencil packer makes it appear that the original rigger packed the reserve. That's hassle for the rigger that he or she does not deserve.

[riggerpaul 1]

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>If someone pencil packs and goes in on it, why do we care?

As long as it's clear that the jumper in question was the pencil packer, then no problem. The only issue I have with it is when a pencil packer makes it appear that the original rigger packed the reserve. That's hassle for the rigger that he or she does not deserve.

Okay, now, should I have any particular reaction to it? I can't stop him, he already did it. Defense might be difficult, but, as I said, I can't actually stop anyone from doing it.

If there is no remedy to be applied, any concern on my part is just wasting my angst, and I should just let it go.

I can refuse to pack his rig again, but that's little penalty around here. You can't toss a rock without hitting a rigger in NorCal. Well, more or less.

So, what's the point of getting all bent out of shape?

[billvon 2,394]

>Okay, now, should I have any particular reaction to it? I can't stop him,
>he already did it.

Right. Now he says he's going to do it again and he asks if it's OK. What do you say to him?

[riggerpaul 1]

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>Okay, now, should I have any particular reaction to it? I can't stop him,
>he already did it.

Right. Now he says he's going to do it again and he asks if it's OK. What do you say to him?

Asks if it is okay - of course it is not.

But, so what?

You don't really think anyone is going to ask?

Don't twist the question.

After the fact I discover a rig penciled with my id.

Is really anything to do?

Riggers - what do YOU do?

[humanflite 0]

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>Okay, now, should I have any particular reaction to it? I can't stop him,
>he already did it.

Right. Now he says he's going to do it again and he asks if it's OK. What do you say to him?

Asks if it is okay - of course it is not.

But, so what?

You don't really think anyone is going to ask?

Don't twist the question.

After the fact I discover a rig penciled with my id.

Is really anything to do?

Riggers - what do YOU do?

flag them up to the Safety and training officer and DZO for every dz in the us!

Its their business if they are using a non existant ID and number to pencil pack, but as soon as your (or another riggers) identity is stolen it goes up a notch in my book.