riggerpaul 1 #26 December 13, 2010 yes, I get what you say, and where it broke. I am surprised at where it broke - between the cable and the seal. It seems more likely that it would break on the loop side, since that is where the single point load would be. But, no matter. If the thread is not through the closing loop, it doesn't matter where the thread breaks. It won't hang up the closing loop. Knot or not (oh! a bad pun!!), I don't see that Terry's method guarantees that the thread will break at the pin. But I probably still don't understand his method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #27 December 13, 2010 Why does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead?Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #28 December 13, 2010 QuoteWhy does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on paragear and pencil packing their own reserve?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #29 December 13, 2010 Quoteyes, I get what you say, and where it broke. I am surprised at where it broke - between the cable and the seal. It seems more likely that it would break on the loop side, since that is where the single point load would be. But, no matter. If the thread is not through the closing loop, it doesn't matter where the thread breaks. It won't hang up the closing loop. Knot or not (oh! a bad pun!!), I don't see that Terry's method guarantees that the thread will break at the pin. But I probably still don't understand his method. I believe this is the method that Terry is using (and is what I was taught) I don't see a way that it could lock the container closed, once the pin is out, the seal is no longer held near the loop, no matter which part breaks."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tuffyjensen 0 #30 December 13, 2010 Anyone could seal or reseal with just thread, it does not give you any protection from tampering. At least with a lead seal, to tamper with it you would have to get a stamp the same as the last rigger's seal to reseal without being noticeable, not fool proof, but better than just thread. With that said, it amazes me how many times I have seen a rig inspected for in-date compliance by simply looking at the card. Make sure the card and the seal actually match.Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order! Tuffy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #31 December 13, 2010 QuoteAnyone could seal or reseal with just thread, it does not give you any protection from tampering. At least with a lead seal, to tamper with it you would have to get a stamp the same as the last rigger's seal to reseal without being noticeable, not fool proof, but better than just thread.you could get a seal press with anything on the dye, and sign it like that.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #32 December 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhy does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? I dont know, it just seems like there must be a better way than having something that can potentially cause a major problem. Maybe the USPA should have a central database for all riggers to update. Using the serial number from the rig and reserve, they send a simple email to a database admin that works at the USPA and they update it. Just a thought....Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #33 December 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? I dont know, it just seems like there must be a better way than having something that can potentially cause a major problem. Maybe the USPA should have a central database for all riggers to update. Using the serial number from the rig and reserve, they send a simple email to a database admin that works at the USPA and they update it. Just a thought.... Skydivers aren't the only ones that use emergency parachutes. So it would have to go and be mandated by the FAA for ALL emergency packs, then you have to get all the riggers out there (who, may not have internet) to go on a website and post info about their packjobs... and what happens when you go to a new DZ and the internet is out, so they can't check the repack certification? The current system works pretty well for keeping people honest..."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #34 December 13, 2010 A better solution would be for people to stop insisting on a seal to "prove" airworthiness. Regulations require riggers to seal their pack jobs, but there is no requirement for owners to keep the seals on their rigs. Nothing in the regulations says the seal is there to prevent tampering. Further, all the tampering we have seen has occurred with the seal intact. It is the owner's responsibility to safeguard his equipment and make sure it is safe to jump -- the owner is the tamper-prevention device. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #35 December 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhy does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on paragear and pencil packing their own reserve? Should someone actually care? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #36 December 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhy does lead need to be used in the first place? I know it has a seal pressed in, but the pack card has the info as well. Why cant just thread be used, no lead? Who's going to stop someone from ordering a whole spool of it on Paragear and pencil-packing their own reserve? ..................................................................... Laziness! Most pencil-packers are lazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #37 December 13, 2010 "... But why put the seal thread through the closing loop in the first place? ..." ....................................................................... This is the first time I have heard of this practice. Rob Warner rigging since 1984 FAA Master Rigger CSPA Rigger Examiner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #38 December 13, 2010 Quote Quote In Poland we use a piece of paper with rigger's stamp and signature, instead of a lead seal. That would squeeze thru the grommet easily . That's exactly what we were using in Bulgaria till 2009. Then the people in charge thought that the lead seal is better than a piece of paper ..................................................................... Not sure if I agree with Bulgarian bureaucrats???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 31 #39 December 13, 2010 Quote Not sure if I agree with Bulgarian bureaucrats???? haha,you are not the only one"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #40 December 13, 2010 Hi Michael, Quote Like so many things in FAR’s, the proper way to seal a reserve is somewhat vague and open to interpretation. You bugger, you beat me to it. Terry, this idea of just how to do this might be something for the upcoming Rigger's conference at Reno. When I first heard of this 'problem' ( I seem to remember that the first time was with a rig from a Scandinavian country; but I might be wrong ) and I really could not see how a lead seal could ever cause a total. Why: Because it just never occured to me that anyone would ever put the thread through the locking loop. One learns something every day; some things I just would prefer not to learn. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #41 December 13, 2010 Hi Paul, Quote I am surprised at where it broke - between the cable and the seal. It seems more likely that it would break on the loop side, since that is where the single point load would be. There are things called 'stress risers.' I know a little about this because it was something we studied in engineering school ( a couple of lifetimes ago ). In this type of case, we simply do not know where the highest stresses on the thread occur at. I am thinking at the Lark's Head knot at the cable because the thread going through/around the loop would be more curved and therefore be subject to less stresses. Or maybe I am completely wrong & have no idea. Does that explain it completely and make it clear for you? JerryBaumchen PS) An excellent graphic of a stress riser is the drawing in Poynter's original Parachute Manual at section 8.2.1.C.2.b. When I did this testing I was surprised that the line broke where it did. But after doing some thinking, I realized that this was the location of maximum stress, i.e., where it has to break. I don't have a scanner & am a computer 'know-nothing' so I cannot put the drawing up on this site. I took a photo and this is the best that I could do. Hope it helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #42 December 13, 2010 Hi ski, Quote the seal is no longer held near the loop, no matter which part breaks. Great graphic; I only wish I knew how to do that stuff. If it broke on the shortest leg, between the Lark's Head knot and the seal, then the other leg of the thread would pull it towards the loop/grommet but that should not be a problem. IMO, and I may be wrong, this problem only occurs if one puts the seal thread through the loop. JerryBaumchen PS) I am doing a lot of responding to this issue because I think that every rigger's nightmare is packing a total. Sorry to be taking up so much time on this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #43 December 13, 2010 My way is kind of like the diagram above. If I put the thread through the loop it no matter where it breaks if the ripcord is pulled it won't do what happened here. We had a thread on this video before. I still think I've seen someone RECOMMEND putting the thread through the loop. Many, many years ago and I dont' remember where. Still too lazy to find my old camera to take a picture. The lowest resolution on my new one is still to big to post and I'm too lazy to make it smaller. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #44 December 13, 2010 I plan on talking about this incident but there isn't one right way to seal a rig. Another good way is the BPA way. I've NEVER seen anyone in the U.S. use it. And it violate a fundimental principle, you have to put a needle into the fabric of the closed container to do it. Granted it is on a top flap usually and there is little risk but I don't like people thinking that it's ever ok to sew on a closed rig. And, on a reflex/racer etc. it's much easier to get to something you don't want to with the needle. Jerry, I don't think a paper seal would necessarily help. Some I've seen are much stronger than the thread and the problem in this video could still happen.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #45 December 13, 2010 QuoteI believe this is the method that Terry is using (and is what I was taught) I do the same, but don't loop the ends back through the seal a second time - drawing attached."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #46 December 13, 2010 Wasn't there some conversation in here, some years ago - about an actual incident supposedly caused by a lead-seal jamming a grommet? I seem to recall such, however - cannot locate the exact thread (no pun intended) I am referring to. I also seem to recall people advocating a "figure-of-eight" safety-thread / seal tieing / routing method (similar to the BPA document being referred to) to be used, in response to the incident - designed to eliminate any chance of this thread-routing possibility from occurring. I too, cannot envision any way this was just "accidentally" done - as it seems it would take some real attention/effort to actually route the thread through the closing loop, under the seated pin. Have you checked with the rigger that packed this to find out if this is: 1. His/her normal practice? and if then... 2. Why?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drjump 0 #47 December 13, 2010 It is amazing what can be done vith a video camera and U-tube! If sealed properly this would not be possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #48 December 13, 2010 Since we're bagging on lead seals, there was the one that almost did in the late Ben Minnich, the fellow who owned the land under the Perris Ghetto. He was out walking around in the Ghetto and a freefalling lead seal beaned him right on the top of his head. It raised a pretty good sized welt too. He then took to never going outside without wearing a construction type hard hat. When I laughed and said, "Ben, the chances of that ever happening again are a million to one." "Bullshit!" He answered. "If you set up a time lapse movie camera around here and watched a couple years worth of footage in 10 minutes you'd see it's absolutely raining lead!" And he wore that hardhat until the day he died of natural causes many years later . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #49 December 13, 2010 QuoteAnd it violate a fundimental principle, you have to put a needle into the fabric of the closed container to do it. Granted it is on a top flap usually and there is little risk but I don't like people thinking that it's ever ok to sew on a closed rig. And, on a reflex/racer etc. it's much easier to get to something you don't want to with the needle. You could seal it in a similar manner without sewing the seal down. After the surgeon's knot you could thread it through the seal, knot and press. Then it would sit there and not add to the pull force required. The issue I see with the BPA method, while I think it is unlikely because of what would be required to do so but since no thread is broken one could reseal their container without anyone knowing. It wouldn't be easy but if someone really wanted to they could but on the same note, nothing prevents anyone from ordering a press and the same numbers as another else from paragear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #50 December 13, 2010 Quote My way is kind of like the diagram above. If I put the thread through the loop it no matter where it breaks if the ripcord is pulled it won't do what happened here. We had a thread on this video before. I still think I've seen someone RECOMMEND putting the thread through the loop. Many, many years ago and I dont' remember where. Still too lazy to find my old camera to take a picture. The lowest resolution on my new one is still to big to post and I'm too lazy to make it smaller. Are you referring to the sketch posted by theonlyski? Even in that method, if the thread is through the closing loop, and the thread breaks between the lark's head and the seal, the seal could jam the in the grommet. It would depend on exactly how far from the pin the seal was set. If set too close to the closing loop, there would still be a danger. If set right next to the pin, I would hope there would be enough force to break the remaining leg of the thread. Since you say that your method would not have that failure mode, I'd still love to see how you actually do it. Maybe someone else who is familiar with your method could post a drawing. Of course, all this is just mental masturbation if the thread isn't through the closing loop in the first place. I don't put the thread through the loop, and I don't know of anybody who does. If I ever see such, I'll say something to whoever did it. I just thought of a way that would absolutely not be able to jam the seal in the grommet. Begin with a length of seal thread. Fold it in half and hook it around the pin blade. Now lead the folded double thread up to the cable and tie it there. A couple of half hitches should do it, but use 3 or more for good measure. Now put the seal on the free ends of the double thread beyond the pin. Crimp the seal. For tamper resistance, the seal must be close enough to the cable so that the knots cannot be untied while the seal is in place. With this method, the seal cannot be pulled to the grommet, because it is on the opposite side of the pin from the loop of thread. Even if the thread was through the closing loop, the seal cannot jam in the grommet. Now, I just thought of this, and I would love to hear if there's any way for such a seal to jam. So I absolutely invite comment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites