Hm, Americans aren't well liked by many Arabs...

[vonSanta 0]

I was with an acquaintance and we went over to one of his friends to get a DVD player my friends pal had borrowed.

The guy is Lebanese and just came home from a 3 month trip there. He's retired (at age 35, no physical ailments, gotta love the welfare system here) so he usually takes his retirement check and then goes off to Lebanon.

Anyway, he showed me some of the souvenirs he had picked up.

A beautiful, well made Bin Laden statue thingy. Had Bin ladens face and a miniature of the WTC, with a plane going into one of the towers. Socket was of high quality wood. Heavy thing, well made.

A Saddam Hussein lighter, also well made.

A US GI lighter-thingy. Press button, US soldier gets flame through head.

Some pictures (printed from computer) of crashed US helicopters

I asked him if he hated the US. "No. Only Americans. Their land is beautiful enough". Asked him whether these things were common in Lebanon? "Yeah, most have them".

He told me that the US has "underestimated our hatred for Bush the Warmonger", and the level of insult and opression the Arabs feel.

And how the "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is seen by the vast majority as nothing but a lie to cover up the stealing of oil. He also launched into a whole range of conspiracy theories.

And of course he easily managed to portray the US as a hypocritical(sp) country. Support Saddam. Give him bacteria etc. Saddam gasses. US vetoes UN resoluton against Saddam. Then Saddam bad, two wars. Supply Bin Laden with arms and money. Then go after him.

I was quite shocked. He was not a raving fanatic or anything - more like resigned yet very resolute.

I think we in the West have no idea just how much animosity there is towards the US in particular. France and Germany aren't much better in their eyes and Britain is almost as bad as the US.

And it's not about religion. It's about pride.

Recruitment of "foreign fighters" to Iraq is high, he said. And he claimed that more and more suicide bombers were willing to take their fight to Iraq. And, of course, that fundamentalism had had something of a rejuvination - in essence it's used as a unifying matter between groups of people with different values but sharing one - hatred of the US.

He also said that they don't hate "the freedom Americans have". He doesn't care one way or another. He hated the humiliation, the selective support of "good/bad" guys, the black and whiteness Americans see the world with and the "we're strong so we do whatever we want to". His words and values, not mine.

I need to reiterate that the guy isn't a fanatic - in fact he was a quite nice guy. There's *serious* need for some PR campaign in the middle east.

And, more importantly, he said that he thought the best way of defeating Arab terrorism would be to "understand Arab culture and respect it, rather than piss on it and claim own superiority". But he doesn't care if the US does that because if they don't, they'll suffer the consequences and that is just as good.

What a mess. I'd doubt US politicians when they say Arabs are coming around with a more respectful and friendly attitude towards the US

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[lawrocket 3]

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Had Bin ladens face and a miniature of the WTC, with a plane going into one of the towers.

Hmmm. So does that mean they are no longer claiming that Israeli Jews planned the 9/11 attacks? Maybe they ARE coming around...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vonSanta 0]

Dude, the way some of his conspiracy theories were, he'd probably claim "the Jews controls the Americans, so they get them to support Bin Laden and pay him to get the Twin Tpowers down so they can steal iraqi oil and still blame the Arabs!"

I shit you not, I heard something like that.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[yardhippie 0]

I'll fall in line w/ most of that. I have been to Germany, France, Switzerland, Venezuela, and Australia.
Most of them all like us well enough (except the french, just my experience) but they hear a great many more grumblings from people who live in the middle east.
The problem is... they are beginning to think like US. ooh... there is an American... they must be a money hugry, war mongering, Bush supporter.
Just like a great majorty of U.S. citiczens.. think hell just go over them and kill em all. (again just my experience)
My father spent a year and a half in Bosnia (talk about HATE americans) and now lives in Germany.
and my Mother in Austrailia
I worry about them, not cuz there far away.. but that some finatic.. will assume just b/c theyre american... and want to hurt/kill em.
the word just aint what is used to be. We have spent too much time sticking our noses where it dont belong.
IMHO.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[falxori 0]

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I think we in the West have no idea just how much animosity there is towards the US in particular. France and Germany aren't much better in their eyes and Britain is almost as bad as the US.

you got that right.
their whole value system is different.
not saying its better or worse than ours, but what you see as freedom and respect for others they see as weakness.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkydiverRick 0]

He told me that the US has "underestimated our hatred for Bush the Warmonger",

[benny 0]

I had sworn I'd stay out of the talkback forums but something just drew me here. I hope this one gentleman's views and trinkets don't skew your view of all arabs Von. Personally, when I was in the middle east for about 6 months back in '98, most of the Arabs I met seemed to have fairly high regard for the US with the exception of a couple a policy disagreements. Of course, we weren't operating under a policy, ahem, doctrine of preemptive invasions at that point either. Oh well, I digress...

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[falxori 0]

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most of the Arabs I met seemed to have fairly high regard for the US

it may come as a shock to you, but even i, living in Israel and eating a lot of shit because of these cultural differences dont thing all arabs hate all of us.

there is a real dispute here between us and them and hopefully it will be solved in a more peaceful way, but still you can't ignore the ways of terror invented by fanatic arabs in recent years.

i have a few muslim/arab friends and i'd like to have more but lately i find less and less in common with their culture.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[benny 0]

I agree with you totally. There is definitely a radical sect in Islam and the Palestinian struggle. I was simply trying to point out that it seems like the sentiment against both American's and Israelis is increasing since the fundamental change in US policy which has become known as the Bush Doctrine. 225 some odd years of not going around starting wars seemed to be working out pretty well for us, but hey, what's 225 yrs of policy precendent good for anyway? I mean, it's a new world and all...

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[AdD 1]

If you want a little more understanding of how people can hate the US, 9-11 is the perfect book. I know I'm always on about Chomsky, but frankly everyone should be. He describes how the consequences of some US foreign policy created widespread animosity to the US, even before 9-11. It's a very good analysis. Too good actually, I'm having trouble finding people who are able to debate him without resorting to name calling.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[billvon 2,380]

Chomsky is a smart guy, but is tilted so hard to the left that it bleeds into his work. I've read "Deterring democracy" and his thing on media propaganda (I forget the name) and I find myself having to apply the left-wing filter often, just as I have to apply a right-wing filter when I read anything by Limbaugh. For less-slanted liberal analysis of current events, I prefer Howard Zinn.

[falxori 0]

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225 some odd years of not going around starting wars seemed to be working out pretty well for us, but hey, what's 225 yrs of policy precendent good for anyway?

you're right about one thing, times are changing.
the US as the empire of the new world can't "stay out of things". it has good sides and bad sides.
but muslim terrorism didnt start with Bush and sadly it wont stop there.
even more sad is the fact the terror sees you wanting a peaceful solution as a weakness.
so how do you fight it? let it be and absorb terror acts or fight it and make them hate you even more?
its a dilemma israel has been facing for years.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[lawrocket 3]

Why dont' we draw an historical parallel here. Lots of people hated the US government. Thus, a bunch of these people were united in the militia movement - anti-government groups seeking overthrow of the government for its abuses.

Then, one day, those guys figured out what this movement really stood for. The bombing of the Murrah builing in Oklahoma City led those in the militias to say, "Oh, my goodness. Those people leading these groups are crazy!" And the good people of America in those groups realized that no dislike of a country merited the destruction and mass murder of innocents. The militia movement died that day.

Now, why do we not see the same outcome in the Middle East? Why is it that the falling of the twin towers (which initially stunned even Arafat) was not met with the same disdain among Arabs? Because it was others beng hit.

Only after Saudis got clobbered by a bomb did they finally step up efforts to eradicate the terror. They admitted to this. The issue was that the terrorists didn't hit them, they hit us.

I think the only way to see it that way is for one of us to hurt ourselves, or for one of them to hurt themselves. Americans massacreing AMericans changed our ethos. Arab terrorists did not cause the same reaction.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[benny 0]

I know this is completely off topic, but how is skydiving in Israel anyway? I've been kicking the idea of going back around a bit, would love to jump while there if I do.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[kmcguffee 0]

I work with Arabs daily in my job and, based on my experience, they do not have a general hatred for Americans. They have a general mistrust of government authority though. This mistrust is not just directed against the US either. They mistrust any and all governments including Arab governments.

You find many who love America and Americans and you find many who hate America and Americans. I can also say the same for whites, blacks, hispanics, Eastern Europeans, etc. Be careful making your judgement of the entire Arab community based on the opinions and dialogue of one member.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,380]

>I think we in the West have no idea just how much animosity there is towards the US in particular.

I think if an arab talked to our very own Steel he'd get a feeling that americans all hate muslims. But that would just be one american; it's hard to draw any conclusions from that.

[crbizri 0]

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Anyway, he showed me some of the souvenirs he had picked up.

A beautiful, well made Bin Laden statue thingy. Had Bin ladens face and a miniature of the WTC, with a plane going into one of the towers. Socket was of high quality wood. Heavy thing, well made.

A Saddam Hussein lighter, also well made.

A US GI lighter-thingy. Press button, US soldier gets flame through head.

Some pictures (printed from computer) of crashed US helicopters

Asked him whether these things were common in Lebanon? "Yeah, most have them".

In response to this - I think he's exaggerating quite a bit about the availability of these "souvenirs". My family is Lebanese, we go back every summer - in fact I was back there twice this summer and saw nothing that even looked like what he brought back. No one in my family or anyone in the homes I visited while I was there had anything like them.

[freeflir29 0]

It's OK. The feeling is mutual.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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I know this is completely off topic, but how is skydiving in Israel anyway? I've been kicking the idea of going back around a bit, would love to jump while there if I do.

I heard from an Israeli AFP student at our DZ that was talking about going there sometime that they charge an arm and a leg for gear rentals, she said it would workout cheaper if she owned altimeter(certain about this), don't know about jumpsuit, helmet etc though.

[gmanpilot 0]

Chomsky, Susan Sontag, Gore Vidal, Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Liddy,.........yuck. Unbalanced extremists, the lot of em. Yes, we are and will always be hated by fundamentalist Muslims. They share a culture, nurtered over thousands of years, that is singularly suited to foster hatred toward the permissive pluralism that is uniquely American. We are hated, and there is not much we can do about it. In that case: Oderint dum metuant- Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[freeflir29 0]

I just want to put out a plea.......PLEASE come try and hijack another plane. PLEASE!!!!!!!! BEEEEEEEEAAAATCHES!!!!!

[StevePhelps 0]

Just one question .... Am I suposed to be bothered that they feel that way?

[fasterfaller 0]

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It's OK. The feeling is mutual.

I don't care for them either .

[slug 1]

>>The guy is Lebanese and just came home from a 3 month trip there. He's retired (at age 35, no physical ailments, gotta love the welfare system here) so he usually takes his retirement check and then goes off to Lebanon.

Anyway, he showed me some of the souvenirs he had picked up. >>

Looks like the uneducated red necks are not restricted to the US. The guy's 35 so he's been listening to 3 decades of hate.

I wouldn't be surprised if a US business person doesn't import that stuff for sale on E-bay. Me thinks there would be a market here for it's red neck BS. Great gag value, the collector's here would snap it up, in 30 years it might be worth something. Be sure and keep the box!
I support our enlisted troops and their families. Their the one's that have to deal with the red neck factor.

R.I.P.

R.I.P.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Speak for yourselves, guys. Personally, I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, etc. I do not hate entire nations or religions or races. (I may hate small groups of international criminals, however).

But if someone has it really fixed in his head to hate you, there's not much you can do about it, so I don't stress too much about that. I believe in the end it is the hater who loses, not the hated.

We definitely gotta do something about this Israel/Palestinian BS, because that has always been the main propaganda point. But even if a miracle happens, and we get a peaceful two-state agreement accomplished, a lot of these haters will continue to hate us. They'll find a way; hate can be a very seductive attitude. There's not a whole lot you can do with someone like that.

Speed Racer
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