Handgun Owners:

[Jimbo 0]

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Fortunately, Jimbo was on the other side of the partition in the next lane and didn't see that it was pointed at him while she was doing it.

WHAT WHAT WHAT?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Deuce 1]

Well, Rich. I function as the safety for my weapons, and don't need anything in addition to that. I think the Glock that truly matches your description is the "New York" triggered Glock, which had to be created for knuckleheads used to carrying revolvers who took up the trigger slack when they drew their wheelgun. That discharges a Glock, and will discharge any 1911 type gun if the safety is swept off on the draw, as it's supposed to be.

My Sigs didn't have safeties, and the first auto I carried was the P7 M13, which had a very nifty squeeze cock/decock thingie.

Finger off trigger is the safety.

No flames, I think 1911's look really cool, and are fun to shoot, but are not my first choice for a daily holster gun.

What do I know. I usually carry an AMT DAO .45 if I feel the need for a pistol, and it has like a 25lb trigger pull or thereabouts.

[rjf98 0]

Bingo Duece. The shooter is the primary safety.

are you sure you meant 25lb trigger pull????

[Swoopyswoop 0]

9mm PFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTT thats for pussys. Get you a .45 yo. much better heater.

"when I die, I want to go like my grandfather while im sleeping, not like the passengers riding in the car with me
Swoopster
A.S.S. #6 Future T.S.S holder

[Deuce 1]

Nah, it's just very, very heavy. It's OK though, cause if I ever need to take the thing out of my pocket I'll be screaming and running away shooting as I go.

I found this while checking on stuff for jp. This is a bad idea. A fanny pack on a white guy with serious eyes is a dead giveaway he's a cop.

This fanny pack might create some doubt. The abuse the owner would have to put up with in the locker room wearing it might make it impossible for a cop to wear. Except in Scotland, and then only maybe.

[AggieDave 6]

I've ALWAYS thought that the fanny pack conceal rigs were a fucking joke. Yeah you have your weapon easily concealed and easily drawn, but everyone and their kid knows you're carrying a weapon.

There are better ways to conceal a weapon on your body, even for full-sized handguns, although you do have to be very careful not to imprint your weapon on your clothes and to dress around it. Small price to pay, IMHO.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Douva 0]

I was just flipping around and came acros American Shooter on The Outdoor Life Network, and they were doing an interview with Jeff Cooper (famous handgun instructor) who said that he believes the Colt 1911 is the only gun suitable for self defense carry. I'm not saying I agree, but it was interesting to hear, in light of this discussion. He didn't go into details about why, but the show isn't over, so they may come back to it.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Aviatrr 0]

.45ACP without a doubt. Don't worry about the "cost of ammo" as some people have stated...you're talking a couple bucks difference per 50 rounds. How much do you plan to shoot it? 500 rounds a month, you're gonna pay about 20-25 bucks a month more for ammo. Much less if you reload your own. Plus, how many gun owners actually put 500 rounds a month through their guns? Not many. You'll probably average more like 100, at the most.

I carry a Para Ordnance C6.45LDA. It's a compact .45ACP, double action only, with a 6 round mag. You can get the C7.45LDA with a 7 round mag and a bit longer barrel - but all other features are the same. They are called the Para Carry(C6) and Para Companion(C7). They have several more similar models. Check out... Para-Ordnance

I don't normally feel a need to carry a spare mag with me, but I do occasionally. Without it I have 7 rounds. With it I have 13. The guys that say they want to carry the guns with the largest magazine capacity are, IMO, incompetent shooters. If you are in combat or law enforcement, more ammo is a valid argument...but if you are a civilian, chances are you will never fire more than 2 rounds if there is ever a reason. I had reason to draw my weapon once, and I fired.....guess how many rounds? 2. That was all that was needed. Some people will tell you it's in case they get into a shootout with multiple people...well, with 7 rounds, I can take on 3 or 4 people if necessary. Don't waste ammo. The biggest thing is control your shots.

I also have a Glock 30 that I used to carry(and occasionally still do depending on the most appropriate holster) . Awesome gun. If you like the Glock, it's a great carry gun - but for me, the Glock 30 is a bit larger than I wanted for carry. I got my Para for a bit under $700. For my Para, I have a Galco Ultra Deep Cover holster. For the Glock, I have many different holsters.

I also have a Beretta 92FS, Glock 19, Glock 21, Glock 23, Para Ordnance P14.45...and a few more.. I prefer .45 over 9mm for carry hands down. I could be carrying a 9mm Glock with a 15 round mag that isn't much bigger - but I prefer the .45.

For ammo...for .45 I use 230gr Hydra-shocks.. For 9mm, 147gr Hydra-shocks.. For the .40, 165gr Hydra-shocks. For target shooting, I use my own loads.

Mike

[AggieDave 6]

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Don't worry about the "cost of ammo" as some people have stated...

I haven't been able to shoot like this in a while, but for about a year I was averaging 200-400rds per week, so cost of ammo between a .45 and my 9mm was a BIG deal for me. I was getting 9mm plink ammo for about $6, but .45 was about $9 a box of 50.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Aviatrr 0]

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I'm currently conducting an experiment. I have about 2000 rounds through my G17. The last 450 without cleaning. No malfunctions yet of FTFs so far.

Dude, I had a G17 for many years....and I went for almost 4 years without cleaning it, and put about 7500 rounds through it, with not a single malfunction. I finally had to clean it since I decided to sell it.

Mike

[Aviatrr 0]

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I haven't been able to shoot like this in a while, but for about a year I was averaging 200-400rds per week, so cost of ammo between a .45 and my 9mm was a BIG deal for me. I was getting 9mm plink ammo for about $6, but .45 was about $9 a box of 50.

Most people that shoot that much load their own...when I was shooting several hundred rounds a week, the difference in 9mm and .45 was like $5-6 a week, at most.

Like I said originally, though....most people don't shoot anywhere NEAR that much. That's VERY rare. Most gun owners shoot a couple times a year on average.

Mike

[AggieDave 6]

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Most gun owners shoot a couple times a year on average.

Then they're a danger to themselves and everyone around them!

I couldn't reload (I wanted to), but they sort of frown on that in the dorms on campus...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

I wonder how that LDA compares with the G36. Neat pistol.

I was looking for a web picture of the AMT DAO .45, and it turns out the manufacturer went belly up and there are no replacement parts.

Hmmm.

The LDA is double to single action, right Mike?

Edit: Disregard. You said double action only.

[AggieDave 6]

You must not know Google, huh?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976048314.htm

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[FunBobby 0]

Lots of good advice here, and everyone seems to have their favorite weapons and rounds…

Here’s my 2 cents for what they’re worth:

I’m not a police officer, but I’ve shot and trained with all sorts of different handguns for years; I’ve read extensively on handguns and their ammo and own four handguns (+3 shotguns and a rifle) in .32 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm PB, and .357 Magnum.

Of course, cost of the weapon and ammo figure into your buying decision, but if you’re buying a 9mm or .45 (or anything in between), you probably want some very good stopping power.

The 9mm, while the smallest of what most knowledgeable folks will call a “full power” round, is also the cheapest; being smaller than the .45, though, it lacks stopping power, but there are some very technologically advanced rounds that give even the 9mm some awesome stopping power.

Stopping power: There are some great studies on this. The Strasbourg tests, done just over ten years ago (in France – no one could ever get away with doing such a thing in the U.S.) used live goats to measure the effectiveness of different handgun rounds by measuring the average time to incapacitation when shot by each different bullet. There have been all sorts of tests done using ballistic gelatin, which simulates the human body cavity, to show how different bullets would create wound channels and how badly a the person shot would be hurt. One of the best indicators, though, is history: Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have maintained a database of police shootings over the years, and that database shows the percentage of one shot stops in actual shootings.

Here is a link to a pretty good compilation of all those studies and a really good discussion:



Some of the different types of ammo that you might look at:

Frangible rounds – MagSafe, Glaser, QuikShok (sic) – these rounds are hollow bullet jackets filled with different sizes of lead shot. Because they’re lighter, they move and impact at higher velocities. And on impact, they burst. Not explode, mind you – they just shatter into lots of little tiny pieces that go every which way and maximize the spread of energy, kind of like the effect of firing a small shotgun shell at close range. They are generally very effective, but with smaller rounds, if the target is wearing a heavy jacket, these rounds can be slightly less effective because they may dissipate their energy quickly through the jacket layers.

JHPs, or Jacketed Hollowpoints – Federal Hydra Shok, Winchester Silver Tip, Remington Golden Saber, etc. I believe that most of the police use these. These bullets will expand on impact, creating a larger wound and making for better stopping power than full metal jacketed ammo. You might look at CorBon, which makes some very high velocity JHP ammo – their rounds have great stopping percentages.


My thoughts:

9mm – Not the largest round, but plenty of stopping power when I load my magazines with a combination of some of the frangible rounds and JHPs. I have a Beretta 92FS with 3 high capacity (pre ban) magazines; those 15 round magazines will also fit in the new Beretta 92 Vertec, so I may be in the market for one of those. I like having lots of ammo.


.45 ACP – Much more stopping power, but the sheer size of the round makes finding a good-sized handgun (serviceable, but not so large as to be unwieldy) difficult. Sure, there’s the 10 round limit on mags now, but in general, a 9mm handgun with 10 rounds is still less bulky than a comparable .45 with 10 rounds. And statistics show that you can get just as much stopping power as the best .45 ACP round in smaller calibers. By the way, I was at the range last week here on base when a gentleman from Glock showed me a new handgun they were trying out in .45GAP (.45 Glock Automatic Pistol), a new round they are developing. The size of the bullet itself is same, but the casing is shorter; the powder and primer are engineered for more a more efficient burn on firing, and even with the smaller casing (and less powder), the .45 GAP generates as much energy as the old .45 ACP. The guy said that the smaller casing size will allow for smaller magazines and grips, and that SIG and H&K are already developing their own handguns to fire the new .45GAP. I don’t know if a .45ACP will be able to fire the .45GAP.

In betweens:
.40S&W – Awesome round. In between the 9mm and .45 with great stopping power. Lots of folks have already mentioned it.
.357SIG – This is a 9mm bullet that has been put into a .40S&W casing that was necked down to fit the 9mm. Get that? The name comes from SIG Sauer, who wanted an auto pistol bullet that would have the same ballistics (and hopefully, stopping power) of the .357 magnum, which historically has been the hands down best stopper out of all the handgun bullets. Believe it or not, bigger is not always better - .44 magnums, while very powerful, travel at such high velocities that they cannot always impart all of their energy to the target, and sometimes pass right through without doing as much damage as a smaller round would. The .357 magnum just seemed to have the correct balance of muzzle velocity and bullet weight.


Guns:
Sure, I like most of ‘em. In .45, colt government models (1911s, the classics) and their clones are great. Para Ordnance pistols are awesome, too, and have larger magazines. But most those are single action handguns (I believe Para Ordnance makes some double action models now). If you had one, would you be comfortable keeping it cocked and locked at all times? And to lower the hammer, you have to pull the trigger and thumb the hammer down. I’d rather have a double action with a decocker and / or safety.

Lots o’ folks like Glocks. So do lots of police agencies. They’re great guns – highly accurate, and tough as nails. They can take lots and lots of abuse and keep firing. They’re simple to operate, too. Personally, I just couldn’t get used to the way they point, and I was never a fan of the feel of the “safe action” trigger. If I had to get something today in .40S&W, .357Sig, or 9mm, I would go for a SIG. That’s what lots of the SEALs carry, and that’s what most of our pilots carry on combat missions. SIGs are wonderfully accurate, and just very well made weapons. H&Ks are great. Even Berettas. Go to some gun stores, shows, ask around. Go to a range and test fire the weapons and see how they feel in your hands. Consider stopping power, handling, safety, desired features, caliber, and price when choosing your weapon.

I know that’s more than an earful; I could spend an hour talking about this. That’s probably more than enough for now. Good luck.

FunBobby

[Glipazide 0]

One of my 9mm's

http://sexygirlabs.com/url]

[Deuce 1]

Ugly, huh.

[AggieDave 6]

I got to play with one of those once...it made me happy in my pants.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

Some folks have heard me tell the story in person, but I was right next to an idiot who shot himself, literally, in the foot while I was training at Gunsite.

An ER Surgeon who was ex-enlisted SF, and then currently in the Army reserve as a MASH physician was in the class too.

Talk about an unsympathetic group. But anyhow, he takes the guy's shoe off and shows us the entry and exit holes, and they're the same size. Ball ammo. No "hydrostatic shock" or anything of the sort. Same thing with the handful of murder victims I was at postmortems for. The bullet cut or broke something important before the person could get to the ER and get fixed.

The stopping power thing is way overthought. Bullets punch holes. In animals or things. Bigger holes are likely to cause more damage, that's all.

[Aviatrr 0]

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The LDA is double to single action, right Mike?

Edit: Disregard. You said double action only.

Well...double action as much as the Glock line is. It's not 100% true double action since you have to rack the slide before the hammer moves when you pull the trigger. True DA would be where you pull the trigger repeatedly(with no round in it) and it brings the hammer back and drops it every time without the slide cycling. Of course, this would be pointless in an auto...since you have to rack the slide to get a round in the chamber.

Mike

[Kennedy 0]

Don't think anyone answered your question, so I'll take it. Wildcatting is basically any activity involving making/designing a new cartridge. Mostly applies to one shooter in a basement somewhere, not Speer or CCI thinking about new possibilities. I don't think it was ever supposed to include anything mass produced. Once it's mass produced, it's not a wildcat anymore.

And yes, the .357 Sig is basically a 10mm or .40 SW case necked down to accept a .357 bullet.

Why alter the powder? There is already plenty in the case. The cartridge specs rise fantastically when fired in a carbine.

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[sdgregory 0]

I always carried mine in thesmall of my back without a holster. Then I wore a button down shirt untucked and unbuttoned. Easiest way to carry and have quick access.

[Paige 0]

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
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[bsoder 0]

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But most those are single action handguns (I believe Para Ordnance makes some double action models now). If you had one, would you be comfortable keeping it cocked and locked at all times?

Yes, otherwise I'd only carry a DA. There's a lot of discussion (as I'm sure you're well aware) over condition 1 carry with 1911's, but my opinion is that they were designed with that in mind.

[Jib 0]

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I always carried mine in thesmall of my back without a holster. Then I wore a button down shirt untucked and unbuttoned. Easiest way to carry and have quick access.

I've been told to carry it off to the side closer to the hip, 'cause if you land on it, it can screw up your back.

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