Recommended Posts
QuoteQuoteA pull out PC does not eliminate horseshoe mals, and does not eliminate a PC in tow mal.
I'm callin' total bullshit on this one!
A pull out will minimize your chance of a horseshoe because you can place the pilot chute where you want it.
The only way to have a pilot chute in tow is to not turn loose of the pilot chute.
It's been a long time since I've read Bill's essay on why the throw out is better than the pull out, I didn't agree with it then and I doubt I'll agree with it now.
First, you might want to hold off on the call...there's a small difference between "eliminate" and "minimize".
Second, holding onto the PC would be a horseshoe problem, not a PCIT problem.
My money is on BB.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
sundevil777 93
QuoteI'm callin' total bullshit on this one!
The rest of your post doesn't support your assertion of total bullshit.
QuoteA pull out will minimize your chance of a horseshoe because you can place the pilot chute where you want it.
I don't know what you mean.
I said (as you did also) that a pull-out doesn't eliminate a horseshoe, it just takes away one cause for it. I think the other causes are likely more common. Those other causes - such as lines snagged by mis-set grommets and lines wrapping around flaps of the main container have happened many times and are not related to the PC type.
QuoteThe only way to have a pilot chute in tow is to not turn loose of the pilot chute.
I believe the most common cause of a PC in tow is an uncocked kill line, which as an earlier post showed can cause an in tow situation even with a pull out.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
stayhigh 2
the only way to have hores shoe with pull out is, to have the closing loop break and pud stay in the pocket.
or hold on to the pilot chute, and technically you create horse shoe for split second every time when you deploy with pull out system.
and as for the pc in tow goes
is it pc in tow or bag lock????? which ever you wanna look at
but with pull out system you'll know that main is out and ready to cut away
vs
it might come out any second now.
.
or hold on to the pilot chute, and technically you create horse shoe for split second every time when you deploy with pull out system.
and as for the pc in tow goes
is it pc in tow or bag lock????? which ever you wanna look at
but with pull out system you'll know that main is out and ready to cut away
vs
it might come out any second now.
.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016
sundevil777 93
Quotethe only way to have hores shoe with pull out is, to have the closing loop break and pud stay in the pocket.
No, that is not true.
Twice now I've mentioned scenarios that have happened many times. Lines getting snagged on mis-set grommets, and lines grabbing on to main container flaps. It can also happen if the bridle or lines snag any other part of your body or equipment.
Quoteand as for the pc in tow goes
is it pc in tow or bag lock?????
The person said that with an uncocked PC, it did not lift the bag out of the container.
Quotebut with pull out system you'll know that main is out and ready to cut away
A pull out system does not assure that.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Quotethe only way to have hores shoe with pull out is, to have the closing loop break and pud stay in the pocket.
or hold on to the pilot chute, and technically you create horse shoe for split second every time when you deploy with pull out system.
and as for the pc in tow goes
is it pc in tow or bag lock????? which ever you wanna look at
but with pull out system you'll know that main is out and ready to cut away
vs
it might come out any second now.
.
You 'can' have a horseshoe with either system...a horseshoe doesn't only happen because of a snagged pilot-chute.
I use to use a pullout with a Raeper, if I hesitated a microsecond with the release I had lines snaking all over possible snag points on the container...with the 18-22 inches of lines recommended left unstowed on bag deployments these days that snag scenario is still a possibility.
A pilot-chute in tow isn't a bag lock.
"It might come out any second now"
~That PIT scenario also true of both systems, even more so with a pullout because the container is already open...
~ if the pack-tray is tight the bag will be just laying there in it, waiting for the tray to slack/loosen up- - -like when the reserve starts coming out.
~ if it's loose the bag could be bouncing around your backside...when the reserve is trying to come out.
*again, I have a lotta jumps on both systems...
Just because I like a throw-out more doesn't mean I 'dislike' a pull-out- - -I do think pull-out users need to understand the system doesn't really 'eliminate' some possible problems, and they should be prepared for them.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Every time this debate comes up, you get the same back and forth about the same issues. Half of the 'what ifs' all involve poorly maintained gear or jumper errors, so even if you leave those out, and assume that jumpers will properly assemble, pack and maintain their gear, the pull out still has an outstanding issue, the floating handle.
I know hookitt was nice enough to chime in with his two cents regarding his own success with a pull out, but there are a few caveats to his story. For starters, he's a rigger and admits that he personally modded his pull out system to work with his rig. Next up, he's a rigger, and I'm sure his pack job is very consistant and his canopy is properly sized to his rig. This makes all the difference in the world when you're trying to secure a pud to the bottom of the container. When the corners are always filled and the mounting surface is consistant in it's shape and tension, it would be much easier to devise a secure pud mounting system. In terms of an average rig given to the average jumper, assembled with various canopies and packed in various ways, it becomes much more diffucult to devise a reliable pud mount.
In the end, all I know is that it sucks ass to have a terminal reserve deployment, possible loss of freebag/PC and a handle, and the cost and downtime of a repack, all while there is a 'good' main still packed in your container. This is what happens when a floating handle turns in to a reserve pull.
Some would argue that a hard pull on a throw out is the same thing, but it's not. The hard pull requires the jumper to improperly pack the PC, and we're assuming that the jumpers are packing all the equipment correctly.
Has anyone done any pull tests on removing a pud vs. extracting a throw out PC? Let's say that a floating handle is the biggest problem with a pull out, and compare that to the equivilant problem on a thow out, which is a premature deployment. The issue then becomes the force required for each of these scenarios, and I have to guess that it is much harder to accidentally extract a throw out from a BOC than to dislodge a pud from it's mounting point.
I know hookitt was nice enough to chime in with his two cents regarding his own success with a pull out, but there are a few caveats to his story. For starters, he's a rigger and admits that he personally modded his pull out system to work with his rig. Next up, he's a rigger, and I'm sure his pack job is very consistant and his canopy is properly sized to his rig. This makes all the difference in the world when you're trying to secure a pud to the bottom of the container. When the corners are always filled and the mounting surface is consistant in it's shape and tension, it would be much easier to devise a secure pud mounting system. In terms of an average rig given to the average jumper, assembled with various canopies and packed in various ways, it becomes much more diffucult to devise a reliable pud mount.
In the end, all I know is that it sucks ass to have a terminal reserve deployment, possible loss of freebag/PC and a handle, and the cost and downtime of a repack, all while there is a 'good' main still packed in your container. This is what happens when a floating handle turns in to a reserve pull.
Some would argue that a hard pull on a throw out is the same thing, but it's not. The hard pull requires the jumper to improperly pack the PC, and we're assuming that the jumpers are packing all the equipment correctly.
Has anyone done any pull tests on removing a pud vs. extracting a throw out PC? Let's say that a floating handle is the biggest problem with a pull out, and compare that to the equivilant problem on a thow out, which is a premature deployment. The issue then becomes the force required for each of these scenarios, and I have to guess that it is much harder to accidentally extract a throw out from a BOC than to dislodge a pud from it's mounting point.
Deyan 31
Quote
Has anyone done any pull tests on removing a pud vs. extracting a throw out PC? Let's say that a floating handle is the biggest problem with a pull out, and compare that to the equivilant problem on a thow out, which is a premature deployment. The issue then becomes the force required for each of these scenarios, and I have to guess that it is much harder to accidentally extract a throw out from a BOC than to dislodge a pud from it's mounting point.
I don't think that this test can be done. It really depends of many things. The condition and material of the BOC pouch, size and material of the PC,the way the PC is folded.The design of the pull out pud. How tight the container is....etc...I would say that they are equally good,if they are maintained well.
Blue skies
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen
QuoteI don't think that this test can be done. It really depends of many things. The condition and material of the BOC pouch, size and material of the PC,the way the PC is folded.The design of the pull out pud. How tight the container is....etc...
If you read my post, I'm looking at the 'best case scenario', where eveything is assembled and packed correctly. You could certainly take properly assembled and airworthy rigs and test them.
I maintain that it will take more force to accidentally extract a PC than to dislodge a pud and create a floating handle.
Of course you could go on to say that a flaoting handle may result in nothing less than a recoved handle and uneventful main deployment, but you could also say that an accidental PC extraction on a throw out may result in nothing less than an uneventful higher-than-planned opening. In either case, we're getting back in to the 'what ifs'.
To keep it realistic, let's set up the gear as-designed, and see which handle is more secure.
hookitt 0
QuoteI know hookitt was nice enough to chime in with his two cents regarding his own success with a pull out, but there are a few caveats to his story.
Yep. I specifically worded my post that way and I'm glad you picked up on it. My mods are simple yet it makes my rig extremely easy and dependable to work with.
Certain skydiving equipment components could have been easily designed better but minor imperfections resulted in consequences 20 years ago and some still occur now.
Thanks for the reply dave.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
QuoteQuoteI know hookitt was nice enough to chime in with his two cents regarding his own success with a pull out, but there are a few caveats to his story.
Yep. I specifically worded my post that way and I'm glad you picked up on it. My mods are simple yet it makes my rig extremely easy and dependable to work with.
Certain skydiving equipment components could have been easily designed better but minor imperfections resulted in consequences 20 years ago and some still occur now.
Thanks for the reply dave.
And from there we get urban legends that people take as fact.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
is there a link that can explain how a pull out system works? maybe some pics?
is the PC spring loaded?
is the PC spring loaded?
Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.
dragon2 0
Quoteis the PC spring loaded?
No, that's a ripcord rig (we use these to transition SL students to freefall before they are allowed to jump BOC).
ciel bleu,
Saskia
dragon2 0
Oh i see thanks for that link.
how long is it normally from the handle to the pin? And where is the PC in relation? ie between pull handle and pin, or after pin inline with the bridle etc.
how long is it normally from the handle to the pin? And where is the PC in relation? ie between pull handle and pin, or after pin inline with the bridle etc.
Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.
Bull shit.
Sparky
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites