Safire 1 vs Safire 2

[SRI85 0]

Im about to get downsize canopies. I currently fly a safire 2 149 @1.0. I found a nice Safire 1 129 @1.16 that im interested in buying.

Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there a noticable difference?

[pilotdave 0]

A couple hundred more jumps on the 149 would be a great idea.

Even at low wingloading, a 129 is a high performance canopy. Learn to fly the one you have really well before you downsize. You're not ready yet.

And your current canopy is NOT too big. Going smaller will not give you better landings, better accuracy, or more control.

Dave

[voilsb 1]

Don't forget the original Safires are measured differently ... a Safire 129 is about the same size as a Safire2 119. Makes for a more drastic change in your wingloading than expected.

Brian

[billvon 2,396]

>Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there
>a noticable difference?

Yes. Safire2 has a considerably better flare. Going from a 149 that has a good flare to a 119 that has not so good of a flare may not be the best idea.

[petejones45 0]

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Im about to get downsize canopies. I currently fly a safire 2 149 @1.0. I found a nice Safire 1 129 @1.16 that im interested in buying.

Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there a noticable difference?

could someone just answer his question rather than criticize his experience? answers like "do more jumps" isn't helpful to the other people who would like to learn more about the differences between the canopies.

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[pilotdave 0]

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could someone just answer his question rather than criticize his experience? answers like "do more jumps" isn't helpful to the other people who would like to learn more about the differences between the canopies.

I'm one of his AFF instructors. My comment isn't general, and I'm not questioning or criticizing his experience.

I've never jumped either canopy, so I can't answer his exact question.

Dave

[Hvance 0]

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Im about to get downsize canopies. I currently fly a safire 2 149 @1.0. I found a nice Safire 1 129 @1.16 that im interested in buying.

Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there a noticable difference?

could someone just answer his question rather than criticize his experience? answers like "do more jumps" isn't helpful to the other people who would like to learn more about the differences between the canopies.

Well, of the three replies before yours, two were explicitly about the difference between the two canopies. And the other one, as shown above, was relevant advice from an instructor. The OP didn't just want to learn about the difference between the two canopies for the hell of it; he said he wanted to downsize. So comments concerning experience are certainly appropriate.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[Slurp56 0]

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Im about to get downsize canopies. I currently fly a safire 2 149 @1.0. I found a nice Safire 1 129 @1.16 that im interested in buying.

Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there a noticable difference?

could someone just answer his question rather than criticize his experience? answers like "do more jumps" isn't helpful to the other people who would like to learn more about the differences between the canopies.

Wow Pete, Seems like their replies have been just about as helpful as yours. Surely you remember your own posts from within the last week or two about not buying a vigil because you "had problems" or to be carefull when buying a pilot because a batch was produced with "built in turns"?

________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Im about to get downsize canopies. I currently fly a safire 2 149 @1.0. I found a nice Safire 1 129 @1.16 that im interested in buying.

Now coming from the Safire 2, will i be dissappointed with anything? is there a noticable difference?

As Bill (& others) mentioned, the Safire 1 a) was measured differently, so it's actually a size smaller, by comparison, & b) has a very weak flare at the bottom end.

I went from a Sabre2-120 to a Safire1-119, and found it to be significantly zippier. I had a lot more forward speed...which didn't work out too well when looking to land the canopy, thanks to running out of flare.

As others have mentioned, I might recommend staying on the 149 for a bit longer. I'm fairly certain there's a whole lot more you can do with your current canopy, even loaded at 1.0.

Good luck!

Signatures are the new black.

[Emu 0]

I've jumped the Safire 1 at 1.6 and I loved it. Much nicer than a Sabre2. They are faster, have a longer recovery arc, and I call bullshit on the earlier poster who said it has a weak flare. The flare is much lower in the control stroke versus a PD canopy. But I found it had more than enough bottom end to shut down on a no wind day.

[Beatnik 2]

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I've jumped the Safire 1 at 1.6 and I loved it. Much nicer than a Sabre2. They are faster, have a longer recovery arc, and I call bullshit on the earlier poster who said it has a weak flare. The flare is much lower in the control stroke versus a PD canopy. But I found it had more than enough bottom end to shut down on a no wind day.

I own both a Safire 1 and a Safire 2. The Safire is loaded at 2.2 and the Safire 2 is at 1.3. I have never had a problem landing the Safire but there is a hell of a lot of difference in the amount of flare compared to the Safire 2. It might not be a weak flare but it sure doesn't generate as much lift as the Safire 2.

[dragon2 0]

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I've jumped the Safire 1 at 1.6 and I loved it. Much nicer than a Sabre2. They are faster, have a longer recovery arc, and I call bullshit on the earlier poster who said it has a weak flare. The flare is much lower in the control stroke versus a PD canopy. But I found it had more than enough bottom end to shut down on a no wind day.

Ditto. I've owned a safire 135 and a safire 119 and I got a couple days jumping in on a a safire 2 119, at wingloads of 1.1-1.7. Could land any of these just fine in any condition (ok, except for the one time I landed my safire 119 wearing 8kg of lead going BACKWARDS into brambles and stuff )

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[TheCaptain 2]

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As Bill (& others) mentioned, the Safire 1 a) was measured differently, so it's actually a size smaller, by comparison, & b) has a very weak flare at the bottom end.

There are generally 2 types of Safire1s, some opened hard and had weak flares (from my understanding those all came from Precision Aerodynamic but not all of theirs are bad) and then there are the ones made in Spain that open great, fly terrific and have flare for days. I had one made in Spain and loved it.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[virgin-burner 1]

i have a safire2 119 currently made in NZ, it's loaded pretty good, and the flare is just awesome; actually, the lines were set, and in combination with the 23-inch risers, i dont really want to go lower than the hips, as it has a tendency to actually stall then. and the flare is just GREAT!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[SRI85 0]

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A couple hundred more jumps on the 149 would be a great idea.

Even at low wingloading, a 129 is a high performance canopy. Learn to fly the one you have really well before you downsize. You're not ready yet.

And your current canopy is NOT too big. Going smaller will not give you better landings, better accuracy, or more control.

Dave

i appreciate the concern, and advice. but everyone did say the 149 was a high performance canopy, and i certrainly do not feel that it is.

i think under a higher loading, i wont be expeiriening as many end cell collapses as i have been getting. this was also the opinion of another AFFI.

[dragon2 0]

Nah, of course a 149 sqft canopy isn't high performance, everyone's just saying that... also the various canopy control gurus that say differently and the various countries where you simply wouldn't be allowed to jump smaller than a 150 for your first 400 jumps or so are overly cautious

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Beatnik 2]

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i appreciate the concern, and advice. but everyone did say the 149 was a high performance canopy, and i certrainly do not feel that it is.

i think under a higher loading, i wont be expeiriening as many end cell collapses as i have been getting. this was also the opinion of another AFFI.

Dave gave you some great advice. Going to a 129 at the jump numbers you have posted is stupid IMO. You probably haven't even started to really fly that 149 yet. Being able to handle in ideal conditions isn't what you should be aiming for. Going to a smaller canopy with a high wingloading and then something happens could find yourself in a situation that can end very badly. You should be able to fly that canopy to its limits before downsizing. That is all I am going to say on that cause it doesn't matter in the end, in this sport it seems like the people with few jumps always know more than the experienced.

How many end cell collapses are you experiencing? The only time I have had cells collapse on me when there was serious problems with the parachute itself and that was on a test jump. If it is end cell closure that you are talking about, that is hardly a reason to downsize, again just my opinion.

[virgin-burner 1]

just do whatever you think is right; but then dont complain like, uh, "the guys on dorkzone said i will be alright!" - u're a mature grown-up, arent you!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Hvance 0]

There is more than wingloading to consider. Wingloading scales linearly with area (by the definition of wingloading). However, volume (of air) does not scale linearly. The difference between a 170 and a 150 is not the same as a difference between a 150 and a 130, if there was such a size. Additionally, the lines are probably shorter.

When a bunch of people tell you something's a poor choice there's a reason. Sure, you'll be able to find at least one instructor who says it's okay. But the aggregate speaks loudly...

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[virgin-burner 1]

yea, the 130 will be MORE fun than the 150 anyway..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mx19 0]

The Safire 1 has a lower flare than the safire 2 but event with lengthened brake lines I have no trouble shutting it down in nil winds, u have jumped a safire1 and now jump a safire2 150 and like the safire1 more. A couple of people have said to me that the safire 2 is the same as the safire1 but with all the good bits taken out (apart from the openings being nicer in the 2) and I agree aswell.

Having said that the 129 will be too small for you. If you want something a bit more fun try a Safire 1 169 (I'm being serious) it's slightly larger and has longer lines but feels more aggressive than your canopy now.

Take what I have said with a pinch of salt as I only have about 250 jumps on a Safire 1's and 100 on Safire 2's

[SRI85 0]

i simply wanted to know the differences between the 2 safires.

i take my advice from the appropriate people at my dz. not on this forum.

thanks to those who answered my question.

[Beatnik 2]

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i simply wanted to know the differences between the 2 safires.

i take my advice from the appropriate people at my dz. not on this forum.

thanks to those who answered my question.

I want to know about your end cell collapsing. What are you doing to cause them to collapse?

Who you take your advice from is none of my business and frankly I don't care. Ignoring good advice and going on advice that you want to hear doesn't make you wiser. Do what you want and hopefully you will stay out of the incidents forum.

[aliencico 0]

Dear Sir,

I am going to try to explain the difference between Safire 1, and Safire 2 models.

Safire 1 was primaryly designed for intermediate to advance jumpers, with a all round performance.

In Spain, CIMSA´s Main designer, Mr Paco Zapirain, tuned Safire 1 in order to resolve some issued problems that resulted in a Safety Bulletin.

After a major redesign Spanish design evolved to Safire2, made exclusively in the Spanish Factory.

Safire2 has better glide performance, improved toggle control, softer, and deeper. It is more resistant to inner collapse due turbulences, and has a better overall performance.

Rules for downsizing a canopy are not a dogma, but, please use your good judgement, inform yourself about your D/Z hazzards, winds, obstacles, etc, for determine the proper canopy choice, for Your Person, and your environment.

Hoping to expand your Horizon

Juan Fraile Nuez
Military Parachute Rigger
Spain, Europe

Juan Fraile-Nuez
Military Parachute Rigger (ret.)
Spain, Europe

[masterrigger1 2]

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In Spain, CIMSA´s Main designer, Mr Paco Zapirain, tuned Safire 1 in order to resolve some issued problems that resulted in a Safety Bulletin.

There was never a Safety Bulletin issued for a Safire 1 AFAIK.

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After a major redesign Spanish design evolved to Safire2, made exclusively in the Spanish Factory.

There were only minor changes from the Safire 1 to the Safire 2.

It is NOT made exclusively at Cimsa. It is also made at NZ Aerosports.


Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com