Riggers - have you heard of...?

[fcajump 153]

I am confident that you are up on all the latest bulletins (maybe).

But when dealing with a classic, remember that while the industry "knew" about these problems at the time, much has been lost from active rigging discussions, because most were fixed then.

But these problems are all gone now, right? You won't run into them now will you... Besides, that its been packed by others, so it must have had any old issues taken care of by now... right?? (Are you sure you know enough about that gear that's been around longer than you, and 15 years longer than you have been around parachutes?)

Disclaimer: I am pulling most of these from memory, and I've only been rigging for 10 years. I'm sure I've got one or more slightly off from the original SB. I'm sure the older crowd could add many more that I'd have to look up.

My point - if you are going to service gear (especially older gear), make sure you learn both what is common knowledge now and what was commonly known about the gear "then".

When in doubt, whip it out... book, manual, phone with "old guy rigger" on other end before you assume that because it looks good, that it is actually correct.

Just my rant.
JW

PS - "old guy" riggers (of either gender), please feel free to add your favorite "forgotten" AD/SB items here... I want to learn too.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Beatnik 2]

The rigger doesn't have to be old to know this stuff. Though it is probably more common with the older ones know. I just say this because I am not an old rigger and I knew about the areas mentioned in the poll. But I mainly deal with older gear pre-80s. The newer stuff I would look up when and if I had to pack one of those rigs. The older stuff is in in my parachute library that I revisit pretty often. Some of the issues of the vintage gear isn't worth bringing up in my opinion.

[PhreeZone 15]

About the only one of those that I did not know off the top of my head was the MS-70101 issue. I try to stay updated on all the SB's but since the industry does not have a really consolidated list or database of them for older gear its hard to learn of some of these issues.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[fcajump 153]

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About the only one of those that I did not know off the top of my head was the MS-70101 issue. I try to stay updated on all the SB's but since the industry does not have a really consolidated list or database of them for older gear its hard to learn of some of these issues.

As it was explained to me, the mil spec MS-70101 did not address the finishing of the edges (or at least not well enough). Some were produced that had sharp edges where the parts were stamped, subsequently they were cutting the chest strap webbing. The MS-70101-1 modification resolved that issue.

I would like to see us (USPA/PIA/etc) put together a consolidated list whereby, if the manufacturer participated, you could look up the make/model (s/n?) and have it indicate what all the SB/AD's were that applied. Having each rigger create and keep his own list, with the natural gaps the will occur is a waist of time. It also assumes that each rigger is diligent enough (or cares) to find out. This is further limited by the fact that some of us rig primarily evenings or weekends (when the mfgs are closed), and that does not even address orphaned gear...



JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[kingbunky 3]

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I would like to see us (USPA/PIA/etc) put together a consolidated list whereby, if the manufacturer participated, you could look up the make/model (s/n?) and have it indicate what all the SB/AD's were that applied. Having each rigger create and keep his own list, with the natural gaps the will occur is a waist of time. It also assumes that each rigger is diligent enough (or cares) to find out. This is further limited by the fact that some of us rig primarily evenings or weekends (when the mfgs are closed), and that does not even address orphaned gear...



JW

a good way to do that might be to ammend tso requirments to include submitting sbs to a central, accessible location. i know that wouldn't cover everything, but it would be a good start. after all, it would just be another recipient of the bulletin, no real extra work required.

of course, this would mean involving the faa and they would probably spend years drafting the regulations.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[fcajump 153]

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I would like to see us (USPA/PIA/etc) put together a consolidated list whereby, if the manufacturer participated, you could look up the make/model (s/n?) and have it indicate what all the SB/AD's were that applied. Having each rigger create and keep his own list, with the natural gaps the will occur is a waist of time. It also assumes that each rigger is diligent enough (or cares) to find out. This is further limited by the fact that some of us rig primarily evenings or weekends (when the mfgs are closed), and that does not even address orphaned gear...



JW

a good way to do that might be to ammend tso requirments to include submitting sbs to a central, accessible location. i know that wouldn't cover everything, but it would be a good start. after all, it would just be another recipient of the bulletin, no real extra work required.

of course, this would mean involving the faa and they would probably spend years drafting the regulations.

Don't think the FAA needs to be involved.
Seems to me that PIA would be the correct group, as it is international (as is our industry) and most manufacturer's are members.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[kellja2001 0]

Is there any chance of anyone explaining all of these to me. I don't know a single one (not a rigger) but am interested in gaining an understanding/knowledge of them.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide!

XxX

J

[riggerrob 558]

The Australian Parachute Federation published an excellent master-list of Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, Technical Bulletins, etc. on their website years ago, and they update it frequently.

[riggerrob 558]

Will we just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Young riggers are faced with an infinite amount of data to absorb, but a finite amount of time to absorb it. Plus, they soon forget data they have not practiced recently.
Round mains disappeared from most Canadian civilian DZs during the late 1980s. Round reserves slowly disappeared during the 1990s, so that now CSPA riggers are rarely asked to repack round reserves. Some Canadian DZs have even banned round reserves.
That is why CSPA made round reserves optional for Rigger As.
Which is why I start every Rigger A Course with a series of questions.
How many of you want to get certified to pack round reserves?
"None! Good, then we will cover the bare minimum to pass the written exam."
Later on - if they want to add round reserves to their rigger rating - they have to review all the written exam questions about round reserves and pack ten round reserves before they can test for that rating.

My other point is that most young riggers do not want to waste time learning about old (e.g. more than 20 years old) parachutes that disappeared from their DZ a long time ago.

IOW They need every brain cell - plus some - to keep current on modern skydiving equipment.

[skydiverek 54]

Here is where I look for SBs and similar info:

http://hq.apf.asn.au/index.php/Rigging_Advisory_Circulars

http://hq.apf.asn.au/index.php/Service_Bulletins

http://www.cspa.ca/technical/english/technical.htm

http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/cms/index.php?/forum/291-service-bulletins/

http://www.parachutemanuals.com

http://rigminder.net/servicebulletin.asp

http://www.pia.com/PIAPUBS.htm

[councilman24 36]

We'll probably let folks vote awhile longer. Then we'll see if Jim can explain them all.

Others

ram air reserve that needed to be sent back for ribs to be recut. (current question in another thread)

Ram air reserve that needed slider stops inspected and maybe replaced.

Issue with ripcord housing end location on piggy back rig. (trivia I hope)

Rig that needed confluence wraps to keep the reserve risers from leaving the harness. (Really old trivia, but my instructor in 1978 jumped one)

Which ram air reserve can you NOT pull test or even use clamps to pack it. (This is recent AND current)

Which ram air reserve recommended replacement of the slider with a bikini. (I hope these aren't in the air anymore, but could be)

Which ram air reserve is the only one (that I know of) that can be put on two risers. (okay, not a service issue but a good trivia question).

70-80% of my repacks now are rounds, PEPs.

And I think Jim ment Speed Links instead of Quick links?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fcajump 153]

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We'll probably let folks vote awhile longer. Then we'll see if Jim can explain them all.
...
And I think Jim ment Speed Links instead of Quick links?

Terry is correct, I did mean Speed Links... Told you there would be errors in the list. And I think I can answer them all... (stay tuned) and Terry's list besides...

Thanks go out to skydiverek, I knew of one set of SB's published in the land of OZ, but on that list I did not see any of the older SB's. Certainly the resources you point to is better than most other lists. (now if we could get a database going... anyone volunteering to put one up on a web site??)


JW -

PS: 80-90% of my rigs are rounds/PEP's. While I do not want to make old gear illegal, I generally do not service gear over 20 years for anyone else.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Jim,

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Don't think the FAA needs to be involved.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!

I get a phone call recently from the Seattle ACO and she said that they were trying to find my file.

Those folks cannot find the toilet without arrows on the carpet.

JerryBaumchen

[councilman24 36]

I don't disagree there is over load. But some of this stuff is in rigs and hasn't disappeared from DZ's. More my list than Jim's.

But on rounds. In the U.S. Senior riggers are licensed to pack rounds or squares. To have a Senior rigger who has never packed a round (as Dave DeWolf's last course) I don't think is appropriate. I asked my FAA Principle Inspector if it would be unfair to hand a round PEP for O and P to a candidate who's log showed he had only packed skydiver ram air resersves. He said it would NOT be UNFAIR and might be most appropriate. Until the U.S. goes to round versus ram air instead of location he's being licensed to do rounds too.

I hope I don't have this situation come up. I'm not sure what I'll do. If I'm the instructor they will have done some rounds, I'll know that, and I probably won't test them on them.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Beatnik 2]

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Will we just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

All I was saying is that you don't have to be old to know these. Granted many newer riggers may not know the material but I am a newer rigger, within this decade and I knew them. That is all I am saying and you can take myself as the point, newer rigger and knew the material.

I hear what you are saying about round reserves and many want. Frankly with how the CSPA system is, many won't get their two pin or pop-top rating either. They really are more of a reserve packer than a rigger. But that is just my opinion.

I pack a lot of rounds every year which I am sure you know. I have all my ratings and soon will have my rigger b as well. Especially since I am and have done all the work anyways. But that is not the standard progression of most of the rigger a's in Canada. Really if they don't want to learn this stuff it is to their detriment. I have had so many great opportunities that I would never have had if I didn't know what I know about rounds and other shaped parachutes than ramairs.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Okay... here at the ones that I hadn't heard about:


What to look for on chest strap adapters marked "MS-70101" (without the "-1")

A round canopy that should have a diaper with a bottom flap (recommended not required)

I know about rounds and diapers, have packed several pilot rigs with them, but not in awhile, but, but didn't know about the "diaper with a bottom flap" nuance?


Anyone care to educate me further on those two, please?


I've heard about this one:

Did Javelin ever come without an RSL?

But thought I'd throw it out there because of two things. 1) Sunpath has moved the RSL from one side of the Javelin to the other... and... 2) The whole debacle Sunpath went through a few years ago with whether it was okay to remove the RSL from a Javelin or not and who could do it.

[PeteS 0]

1. Swift
2.Tempo
3.Corsair
4.Green Star Trac II
5.FCI (any)
6.Raven (early)
7.B. Gargano Hobbit

the one I'm not sure about is the Tempo..does this show how old I am?

[councilman24 36]

Nope on two and three. At least not that I could find.

2. I was thinking of Strong with flat sides. Actually there are about 3 or 4, none being tempo. Search APF data base for slider.

3. If there was one for the corsair I can't find it. I was think of SST's. Housing had to be close enought for pin to be in housing when in loop. And there was one for Softie's I have to admit I didn't even know about.

And here is a recall concerning the MS70101 http://hq.apf.asn.au/images/2/23/410A.pdf

Extra points awarded for the 'Death Star' Trac II.... Long before Star Wars.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Beatnik 2]

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Extra points awarded for the 'Death Star' Trac II.... Long before Star Wars

Can someone please explain to me what is the problem with the Trac-II? I know what many people think is the problem and if someone chooses to give me that answer I will correct them on it.

[PeteS 0]

Just found one for the Nat'l Warp III, it says to move the housing to the edge of the closing flap on rigs made before July, 1982. It was in an old Australian Parachute Federation hand book. Might be mistaken on the Corsair.. gonna keep checking though. Did see the one about the SST.

Okay, found the reference to the GS Express problem in my Poynters Manual, third edition, page 200, top left. Some owners were removing the stitching that passes through the reserve risers and the shoulder pad so they could move the pad. Unless the stitching is replaced, the harness can fail.

Sound about right, Beatnik?

[Beatnik 2]

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Extra points awarded for the 'Death Star' Trac II.... Long before Star Wars

Can someone please explain to me what is the problem with the Trac-II? I know what many people think is the problem and if someone chooses to give me that answer I will correct them on it.

I guess no one wants to mention it. The Trac-II's didn't really have a problem. The only issue they had which was was rubber bands deteriorating with brass grommets, which happened on many rigs. The Green Star rig that came before it. Had the problem with shoulder pad stitching and people removing it causing the harness to fail. This rig was called the Green Star Express.

The Trac-IIs are built like a modern harness in respect to how the reserve riser is sewn to the harness. If there is a problem with it, then there is issues with everything out there.

I have owned two Trac-IIs and this thing has been mentioned a couple of times to me confusing the two rigs. I will post photos of my Trac-II if people would like.

[riggerrob 558]

We are coming closer to agreement on rigger training.

CSPA, the FAA and other licensing bodies can write all the fancy standards they want, but in the end, half of all riggers become glorified reserve repackers.

One member of CSPA's Technical Committee told me that the Rigger A exam contains such huge amounts of data because he expects young riggers' to forget large chunks after they pass the course.

If you were to survey FAA Senior Riggers, I am willing to bet that half of them have not touched a sewing machine in the last year, nor repacked a round reserve since their exam.

All other countries suffer similar degradation of skills.

In the end, it really depends upon the rigger's curiosity. Some riggers are curious, try to learn something new every month and improve their skills, while other riggers start forgetting things the day after they write the exam.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger
CSPA Rigger Examiner

[andyhughes 0]

The UKSkydiver.co.uk rigging section is full back online now (after some extended maintenance)... and most of the items discussed above are in the doc section and included in the "safety notice index" at http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/cms/index.php?/forum/291-service-bulletins/". It is fully text searchable, so it'll be super quick to find the answers to most of the above questions...

[firemedic 7]

I know that Flight Concepts prohibits pull testing and use of clamps when packing their reserves. Do you know of any others?

[riggerrob 558]

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I know that Flight Concepts prohibits pull testing and use of clamps when packing their reserves. Do you know of any others?

.......................................................................

That is because Flight Concepts considers pull-testing healthy reserves to be too great a risk ... and i agree with their policy.

Performance Designs - is the only manufaturer of square reserves that - requires pull-testing to cover their butts in the event of unusual service wear, however, I can count on one hand the number of reserves I have patched and one of them was a PD reserve that a new rigger pull-tested a hole in. I patched the hole and pull-tested the canopy in a dozen other places and concluded that the most likely explanation was that he had pull-tested on top of an earlier pull-test and the the fault lay with the previous rigger who had forgotten to mark where he had pull-tested.
Remember that pull-testing first became popular when round reserves started suffering from acid mesh in the late 1980s.
PD introduced their new line of square reserves during the era when riggers were frantically trying to identify and ground all the round reserves suffering from acid mesh.