RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it?

[billvon 2,397]

>The gear manufactures making recommendations. Here's some
>examples:

You are confusing recommendations with maximums. Maximums means no one should jump beyond X loading; recommendations means that "this is a good canopy for you." From the docs:

"Keep in mind, these maximums should by no means be considered the recommended loadings. Rather, these weight limits should be viewed as the “do not exceed” limits for a given canopy model and experience level."

" It is not our intent to make recommendations to anyone without knowing them and their skills first hand. For a firm recommendation please consult your local Safety and Training Officer or instructor. "

This is the danger of reading what you want to instead of what's there, and is one of the biggest dangers of giving people advice anywhere. If someone asks you "can I jump this?" and you reply, "well, it's way above what I would recommend. You might get away with it for a while, but you are probably going to get hurt or killed" they will hear "well . . . you'll get away with it."

[sdctlc 0]

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That is some sobering reading.

I think it is safe to say Wendy F provided a fairly sobering post in the other thread...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3005127;#3005127

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[frazeebd 0]

Hey Chris! I posted a reply on the other thread that I was hoping to hear back from you on, check it out if you get the chance.

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Everyone knows that it's human nature to be defiant. And by having a whole bunch of people tell me that I can't jump it, and I will die under it, it makes me feel as though I'm out to prove something and want to jump it to prove that

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I have a sister that just started jumping and I'm trying to tell her not to do what I did?

It sounds to me like you're seriously concerned about you're pride, and you're willing to go to the edge to prove you're a badass.... thats the way I take you're defiance anyway. Trust me, I understand that... Years in the military taught me all I could handle about aggression.
This is a dangerous sport. Based on what I read here, it seems to me that you're wingloading and downsizing is of concern, but almost less so than you're defiant attitude. Simply put, defiance kills.
Nobody here will stop you from jumping that canopy if you are set on jumping it... but alot of VERY educated advice is being thrown at you to NOT fly it.
If you ARE going to fly it, I think everyone here would like to hear from you about exactly HOW you plan on being safe? Are you going to jump right into traffic and possibly cut off a more experienced skydiver and cause an incident, or are you going to hang back and practice landing you're Ferrari in the dirt where its safer? Are you asking coaches/instructors to take a look out the window and critique you're landings? Have you done a canopy controls course?

The fighting on here is only pissing everyone off, I'm hoping maybe we can get this on a consctructive course... after all, to all you pro-jumpers posting here, theres plenty of us newbies reading this stuff and trying to learn as well.... and aside from browbeating Chris into not downsizing so rapidly, what other recommendations might you have for him regarding canopy/landing safety under a new/higher wingloading? Eventually I like to think I'll downsize a little, and I can always use the safety advice on how to do it correctly.

I am editing this to add that I just managed to find and read through Billvon's checklist on the "Safety/Canopy Control" section of this website, and thats some good stuff... I have practiced front riser turns and dives, and even flat turns... but always at like 3000 feet, and just tried to keep track of what altitude I started and finished at with 5 and 10 second applications of front risers (and various degrees of turn). Have you read through this stuff? Might be really helpful for you to read/work on this stuff if you haven't.

[dharma1976 0]

I will say this.. again...

I recently talked to my friend who was ahead of his shit and so was said by a really damn good swooper that I know.

He says the handicapped parking is really sweet and he doesn't have to wheelchair himself too far.

of course he has a great attitude about it...

and then there is me...

on a 150 I destroyed my ankle...got lucky I tell you but it was a lesson learned

My last statement is...take your time you have the rest of your life to skydive...that and oh yeah I was an aggressive downsizer...the arthritis sucks and my knees ain't so good now...I lived so far and some of that I attest to luck some of that to some damn good mentors and coaches...

Get yourself some of those should you make the decision (and it is yours to make) to fly a small canopy small canopies do go to shit really fast...even if you are a light load...cause it isn't just loading it is also line length that attributes to that...

Cheers and try to be safe brother

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Gato 0]

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When you see someone downsizing agressively, do you consider what that person's mentality for doing so is? Do you care, do you coach them???

As a skydiver, I'm not qualified to tell you a damn thing. As someone more than twice your age, I can tell you that your rapid downsizing is most likely linked to your having self esteem and self worth issues.

A true Freudian would say that your trying to make your dick look/seem bigger by taking the risk you've chosen. I think you know many of the folks here probably consider you a DGIT. I hope not.

I have a couple of questions for you:

1. What is your goal in downsizing so aggressively, besides going faster?

2. Why not move to a Cobalt 135 instead of the 105? Why did you skip a size?

3. If you've already made up your mind about what you're going to do, why ask for opinions on it, freak out over the result, and tell them they just don't understand the depth of your abilities?

4. If jump numbers are irrelevant, why do manufacturers not allow you to buy something beyond your skill level? (Why can't I fly a Katana through my student progression when all my landings have been great?)

Do some research on risk assessment and the human brain. Very recently it was found that the average human doesn't fully develop the ability until their mid to late twenties. I'm not saying you're immature, I'm just saying you may be fooling yourself anytime you say, "I'll be fine."

Or if you tend to use the words "maybe" or "might" very often, you may want to reevaluate your choices.

Plus, dude, you're setting a bad example for me and other low timers - now I want a Samurai 170 for myself.

Does Brian Germain sell those for Static Line rigs????


Seriously, man - a very wise skydiver told me recently, "Slow the fuck down."

Cheers, and stay safe.

T.I.N.S.

[towerrat 0]

I just think it's funny that I just got rid of a canopy 2 square feet smaller than yours because I didn't feel current enough to be flying it.

I have 3,000 skydives, 700 of which I have done this year.............

You my friend are going to hurt yourself.

If you don't I will be greatly surprised.

P.S. All three of those landings looked marginal at best.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[MagicGuy 0]

Chris..

Honestly dude, I would quit while you're ahead. I see a lot of bad things in some of your original posts. Your reasons for downsizing (wanting a better flare.. what??!!) and the way you are saying that people that are actually setting up their patterns, wanting to be at a certain spot at a pre-designated altitude etc is not necessarily "good", and even more shocking, that you don't know how they do it? Dude, all of those things should be reasons why you should NOT BE DOWNSIZING!!

Let me give you some of my background info, because size-wise, you and I are fairly similar. I'm a light guy.. 130-135 pounds before gear. That puts me at about 150-155 pounds with my gear on. I started jumping last July and in he past year and a half I have accumulated close to 400 jumps. I have taken both Scott Miller canopy classes, a Skydive U coach class (which really has nothing to do with canopy coaching, just throwing that out there), and consider myself to be pretty freakin' current. Actually, at my dropzone I had the 2nd highest fun jump numbers of anyone this year.. and we are a pretty big dropzone. I lost by 2 jumps.

The first rig I got had a Triathlon 160 in it, which I was jumping before I had an A License.. 25 jumps or so. I was loading it at less than 1:1 at the time and even then.. the master rigger and S&TA were slightly hesitant to let me jump it. In AFF.. I stood up every single landing, and to this day I have only had 2 non stand up landings, one due to low altitude turbulence and the other, my personal mistake doing low corrections during an accuracy contest (which I ended up placing 3rd in).

Why am I posting all of this? Because like you, I'm a small guy. If I were going at your recommendations for canopies, taking my jump numbers and size into consideration, I'd be on some sub-100 canopy.

You know what I'm jumping now? A Pilot 150. When I wear my 10 pounds of lead, I am a little over 1:1 on this canopy. You know why I'm jumping this canopy, even though at my skill level (which some people like you would call me a fast learner, 'natural', whatever you say..)? Because I want to be able to know every input of this canopy, be able to land it in any wind condition, and be able to land off.

I've been working on hook turns for the past 150 jumps. The biggest turns I've done are about 120 degree front riser turns. Ask anyone that swoops or is learning.. a Pilot is a hard canopy to swoop. The margin for error as far as timing goes is very small due to the fact that the recovery arc is so short. Take my low WL into effect and it becomes nearly impossible to get a decent swoop. Doing 90 degree front riser turns, I've gone 200+ feet on my Pilot 150. Go figure.. You know what's good about my Pilot for swooping, though? It's forgiving, and if I fuck up, I have a lesser chance of getting hurt because I can dig out of a low turn.

I am confident in myself now, and feel that I can comfortable downsize and stay safe. I've also gotten the same advice from extremely experienced canopy pilots. I thought before that I was ready, and heard from other people that I was ready. But guess what.. the 3 times I have landed off, I was damn glad that I had my 150 and not the 120 that I will go to.

You say that you do not want to swoop. Guess what? You don't have to be trying to swoop to hurt or kill yourself. Cobalts, as you know, are fully elliptical. That means that they lose more altitude in a turn. Do a low turn, with toggles, and you could get hurt badly.

Ellipticals are also more prone to spin up due to bad body position. I don't get line twists very much, but earlier on I had some pretty bad line twists on my Pilot. 1 or 2 times I was even close to chopping. Had I been on an elliptical, I would've been searching for that canopy afterwards and sitting down for the rest of the day waiting for my reserve to be re-packed.

Bottom line is.. just because you don't weigh much doesn't make it right or safe to be on a small canopy. A 105 dude? I am actually extremely surprised that you are even allowed to jump that thing, regardless of skill level or size. That is a high performance canopy in every regard, and one that noone with 130 jumps should be on, period.

Don't take my post wrong. I used to have a similar opinion to yours. Why do these 100 jump guys have 170s and they weigh 100 more pounds than me? Well, a 170 is a whole different animal than a 150 or a 135, nevermind a 105. And like people have said, if you can't get a good flare on ANY modern canopy that's a 135.. than you should be on a 150, not a 105.

Good luck, man. But if I can give you one piece of advice in this whole thread, open up your ears and listen. You will get a whole lot more respect from people and will increase your chances of being in this sport for a lot longer.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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You say that you do not want to swoop. Guess what? You don't have to be trying to swoop to hurt or kill yourself. Cobalts, as you know, are fully elliptical. That means that they lose more altitude in a turn. Do a low turn, with toggles, and you could get hurt badly.

Have you jumped any or are you just talking about?
I had a Pilot150, than I move to a Cobalt 135. It felt like an extension to my body. I was not a wild ride. WL 1.3 is not radical, for a novice, but size 105 is small a bit.

[diablopilot 2]

Yes it is.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Orange1 0]

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Get yourself some of those should you make the decision (and it is yours to make) to fly a small canopy small canopies do go to shit really fast...even if you are a light load...cause it isn't just loading it is also line length that attributes to that

I may be wrong but I think this is the first post in this thread to mention that aspect...

as per the PD article on intelligent downsizing,

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different size canopies will not fly the same when flown at the same wingloading, even if they are the exact same type of canopy

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Gato 0]

I want to make sure I'm understanding the concepts the veterans keep referring to, and possibly bring a little more clarity to the table.

If I am to understand what I've heard so far, somewhere around 150 square feet, the physics of the system become exponentially different, control inputs become greatly amplified, and mistakes are less forgiving regardless of the wingloading.

Could someone explain why this is, if this is true? Is this why it's less of a big deal to see someone downsize from a 230 to a 190, or is that still too great of a leap?

I'm headed for a Manta on my next jump, a 288, I think.
(Edited to correct spelling)

T.I.N.S.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If I am to understand what I've heard so far, somewhere around 150 square feet, the physics of the system become exponentially different, control inputs become greatly amplified, and mistakes are less forgiving regardless of the wingloading.

Could someone explain why this is, if this is true? Is this why it's less of a big deal to see someone downsize from a 230 to a 190, or is that still too great of a leap?

So you have seen what is different. Someone can jump from 300 sqft to 60 sqft. What is different? That's the canopy and the speed of the canopy. What is constant? The resistance of the jumper and the length of the toggle stoke. Think! What deflection would cause the 100cm of change in steering lines on a 300 sqft and on a 60 sqft? the small is more sensitive.

Other side. Jumpers air resistance is about the same. If you make the big one dive, it will return quite fast, because the canopy have lot more resistance than the jumpers body and it would swing back over the jumper.
What happens if you make the small one dive? It would never return over your head without any input...

I hope I could answer your question.

[Flying-Wench 0]

Chris i hope you are re-considering.. reading all of this and the other threads.. its frightening! Dont you feel any fear at all about flying this small canopy with such little experience? Havent you read recent incident reports? Highly experienced canopy pilots are making mistakes and crashing in.. what will you do being so inexperienced?

Im peaky enough under a much bigger canopy, and im not afraid to admit my fear or the fact that at 53 jumps i know little about canopy piloting and have MUCH to learn. Id like to keep a whole hide for as long as i can.

Im also a little/light person, after getting off student status and looking for my own gear, i discussed this with a heap of Instructors, one including Michael Vaughan (go Vaughny!). We all agreed that a 170-ish size would be great for me to learn on. Michael also said that in order to know EVERYTHING about a canopy, you would have to do about 1000 jumps on it. And there are actually lots of excellent skydivers out there that do this. My partner (an AFF & SL Instructor) has been flying his Electra 130 for well over 1000 jumps.

So in the end, given all the advice i got, i settled on a new Safire169. Its a beautiful canopy, responsive, but forgiving.. my confidence is increasing and i am learning lots about how it flies. As soon as i can do a canopy handling course, i will. I can see myself flying it for quite a long time before i even think of downsizing!

[dharma1976 0]

also I wanted to add that rapid downsizing is way better than a penis pump...

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Orange1 0]

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I want to make sure I'm understanding the concepts the veterans keep referring to, and possibly bring a little more clarity to the table.

Gato, this http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf is an article written by Scott Miller (he who many people suggest taking canopy control courses from) available on the PD website. A lot of the concepts are explained in there, including why different sizes of the same canopy at the same wingloading fly differently. Hope you find it useful.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[el6uapo 0]

I read an article in Parachutist about a 37 square foot canopy. It was described as smaller than a twin bed sheet.

Hey, you only have 68 to go before your chute can double as a twin bed sheet. Sweet.

The guy that owns this 37 square foot canopy also likes to jump motorcycles off the Grand Canyon before BASE jumping to the bottom.

What else do you like to do?

Your crazy man.

[Cantoral 1]

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The guy that owns this 37 square foot canopy also likes to jump motorcycles off the Grand Canyon before BASE jumping to the bottom.

Nope, You're talking about two different guys. The one who jumps the 37 is Luigi Cani, the other who likes to jump motorcycles off the Grand Canyon before BASE jumping to the bottom is Travis Pastrana.


Cielos Azules

[dropoutdave 0]

Nope, Luigi rode a bike into the Grand Canyon too, with a wingsuit on.

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May Contain Nut traces......

[Snowflake 0]

Wing loading is not the only factor to consider. Me flying a Cobalt 150 at 1.4 is not the same as you flying a Cobalt 105 at 1.4. The 105 is smaller and therefore has less drag, it also has shorter lines so it turns faster. The end result is your flying a faster more responsive wing then me, even though we have the same wing loading.

That being said The nitro and cobalt charts are wrong, because they don't take canopy size into account. Check out some of the PDF's on PD's website. Get Brian Germains book. Get yourself informed on the subject.

[Baksteen 84]

If I'm not mistaken Chris-Ottawa didn't post in this thread since November 5, while the thread itself dies on November 23 or something.

So why are we bashing him again on March 28?
Whether he took the advice he got to heart or went ahead and stuck with his canopy of choice anyway is unlikely to be changed by resurrecting this old thing.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Snowflake 0]

First, I'm not "bashing" anyone. Second, I was providing information, and sources for more in depth dissemination of that information. Third, I didn't check the date of the OP. I guess I deserve to be drawn and quartered for that. Fourth, The information I provided is relevant no matter what the date, and unlike you there might be some that find it useful

[Cantoral 1]

Ooops! I did not know that.

[mdrejhon 8]

Hello Chris!

Nice to see you online again. Will have to say hello next time I am in Arnprior...

Although you are absolutely featherweight, and even under the 135 you seemed pretty slow but...

The big problem occurs when you are at a boogie and so many people are landing at the same time. Imagine this, you followed rules and you're on your final approach. Nobody's in your way. You even intentionally landing a little further away from the main landing zone, to smartly avoid canopy traffic.

Of a sudden, a swooper idiot from above you swerves to avoid somebody else (a third person) and then is in a collision course with you in less than 1 or 2 seconds and he's still looking at the other canopy he just avoided (So he won't be the one doing collision avoidance with YOU). Think quick! Now you have to flat turn or flare turn IMMEDIATELY to avoid collision! You're barely more than 50 feet above the ground. TURN NOW!!*

Pick a scenario...
Scenario 1: You yank a toggle, and the 105 suddenly dives. Bam. You're in coma for a week, and can't walk again - or your best friends is now doing an ash dive.
Scenario 2: You try to flat turn or flare turn but the diving is worse than you expected than when you practiced in the past. A tib breaks. Welcome to the titanium club.
Scenario 3: You get lucky, and just about to flat turn/flare turn, and land without incident. Because you already practiced at the same altitude in the past under the same and previous sizes.

Practice your low altitude turns and flare turns, but rent/borrow/get a bigger canopy often to do that. It doesn't matter as much at your DZ as it does at a busy boogie. Please know how to safely make low turns. Not for swooping, but evasive turns to save your life someday, or even to safely avoid obstacles.

I even have to do more work. I have flat turned and flare turned at pretty low altitudes (including several intentional turns while landing) but I have to do a lot more, to meet billyvon's "checklist", as I haven't yet intentionally done the recommended NON-SWOOP full 90 degree angle at 50 feet or less, found in a popular downsize checklist. (Although I may have done this once, unintentionally and safely, as unexpected obstacle avoidance (landing zone clutter) - the fact I don't remember the altitude is because it was something I did safely with plenty of margin and ended with a 100% complete ordinary flare in a non-panic situation.) And the fact I haven't jumped often in 2007, I need to practice this more before I let myself own a 150... Rent and demo a 150 at a dropzone with lots of outs, I'm fine, but I need to make sure I can land it in a backyard or tiny outs, even crosswind or downwind, at unfamiliar dropzones because I love to travel and I want to be part of some future Beach Boogie (belize or kenya, etc)

___________

*Similiar, albiet, less severe situation happened to me once. It was airspace incursion rather than true imminent collision. The difference in variables are: 200 feet altitude, other parachutist was forced into an unexpected right-hand swoop (instead of left-hand) because of long spot/get-home-it-is, while I was safely in my normal pattern. Swoosh at my altitude in front of me, probably about a hundred feet ahead. Nontheless, I flat turned immediately into my final leg earlier than expected to avoid his flightline. While it didn't necessarily need to flat turn at that altitude under a Sabre170, I definitely know I need to be able to quickly turn safely at 25, 50, 100, feet altitude in the future with non-swoop low-altitude turns, if I have to, even though I'm not a swooper (yet?). I reported this to the manifest and they made an announcement about following landing pattern properly. No snitch as I intentionally didn't identify the jumper to the DZ (but I talked to the jumper privately).

[jsaxton 0]

Dude, can I be on your ash dive?

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Isn't that from a t-shirt or something?

Whoops...sorry, I shouldn't have posted. Now you all know I'm still alive. Sorry I ruined your day.

"When once you have tasted flight..."