Reserve handles on Icon Student containers

[rasmack 0]

We just got a couple of brand new Icon Student containers, and as with everything new at a DZ, the instructors have some issues with the design (our other rigs are Javelins and old Vectors). The most serious is that the reserve handles are rather small compared to the other rigs. So, while we are waiting for a response from Aerodyne, I thought I'd check if anyone else had an opinion on this. Perhaps there is a good reason for the handle being shaped like it is.

I can't really seem to master the flash shopping system on their webpage, so I can't see if the handles are listed under options as something that can be varied.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[dragon2 0]

Why is that a serious issue? I like the improvement, a lot. In fact, I would really like a smaller profile reserve handle myself on my (older) Icon

BTW the Aerodyne website doesn't list other types or sizes of reserve ripcords as an option for the student icon.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rasmack 0]

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Why is that a serious issue? I like the improvement, a lot. In fact, I would really like a smaller profile reserve handle myself on my (older) Icon

Well, with all due respect, you're not a student.

I think the instructors are more worried about a panicky student unable to fit a gloved hand into the handle during winter than they are about an accidental deployment.

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BTW the Aerodyne website doesn't list other types or sizes of reserve ripcords as an option for the student icon.

Did you find an actual list of options? I had to go through the motions of pretending to want to buy one, and then I was defeated by Flash.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[dragon2 0]

I'm not a student, however I am in the proces of becoming an instructor.

Icon product info:

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The ICON student harness-container comes standard with:

Innovative reserve freebag: We have designed a line stow retention system, specifically designed to help control reserve deployments at high speeds, while not sacrificing low speed requirements. The skydiving industry agrees that poorly controlled suspension lines can be a major causative factor in hard openings. This technology, formerly found only on high altitude, high-speed military systems is now available to everyone in the Icon.

New “Link-Stop” panels! These small panels, located inside the main container, prevent connector links from wrapping around or catching on the corner of the reserve container. Links that catch the reserve container or are wrapped around this corner, have resulted in anything from line twists and off-heading openings to tearing reserve containers out of rigs!

Cypres ready, the display can be position on the backpad or under the see-through window of the reserve protection flap.

- Heavy Cordura fabric.
- Aerodyne new innovative and patented stainless steel miniforce™ 3-ring system.
- Articulated harness with hip rings and all stainless steel hardware.
- Adjustable harness.
- Elastic bungee between the leg pads, to keep the leg pads in place during freefall maneuvers.
- Standard width chest strap.
- Bottom of container pouch for hand deployed pilot chute.
- Hand deployed pilot chute.
- Main deployment bag.
- Stainless steel reserve ripcord.
- Pillow model cutaway handle with conduit insert for improved grip.
- Reserve static line (RSL) system.
- Standard width main risers.
- Icon embroidery on right hand 3 ring cover.
- Aerodyne embroideries on side walls.

The following variants are available at no aditional charge:
- Custom colors.

The following options are available at additional charge:

- Manual ripcord activation (BOC or hip position) with spring loaded pilotchute.
- AFF secondary handles for HD or spring loaded pilotchute.
- Direct bag with static line.
- B12 snaps on leg straps ad chest strap.
- Custom embroideries on side walls and left hand 3-ring cover.

I can't get very far ordering a student icon either, seems to be a bug in the website I get stuck on "Select main canopy size"

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rasmack 0]

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I can't get very far ordering a student icon either, seems to be a bug in the website I get stuck on "Select main canopy size"

Heh! Me too...

Anywho, thanks for the options list.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[petejones45 0]

students shouldn't be allowed to wear gloves... as it was taught in my first jump course

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[rasmack 0]

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students shouldn't be allowed to wear gloves... as it was taught in my first jump course

I'll tell that to the next student who comes to make a jump in November...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[dragon2 0]

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students shouldn't be allowed to wear gloves... as it was taught in my first jump course

Euh, yeah, then they can't jump half the year as jumpers here are obligated to wear gloves when the temp at exit is below freezing.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Hellis 0]

I would say "All students should wear gloves".

- If you are cold on your hands you might not feel the handle
- Your mind will keep thinking of those cold hands when it should be thinking of saving your life.
- You use the hands to steer a canopy, cold hands does not make it easier.
- You use the hands to flare a canopy.
- If you make a bad landing you might cut your hands. Might not be serious but it will keep you from skydivng a few days.

Ok, now tell me why students should not have gloves?
Is it so they can feel the handles?
What happend to "Look, Grab, Look, Grab, Pull, Pull"?
Are you teaching student to guess and feel their way?

[erdnarob 1]

It is a typical case of FASHION versus FUNCTION. Personally I believe it's wrong to install small metal handles on student rigs and also on rigs for rental as well. When the season is cold and jumper is wearing gloves, that combination gloves/small handles can result in problem for the beginner or the jumper renting a rig. Large reserve metal handle should be used instead while it is easier to put the thumb in it. I have a set up in my basement including a suspended harness where the jumper can actually do a real fall in a mattress. The first time they try that set up, most of the time they missed their handle and I use large metal one on that set up. You can guess about what could happen in an actual cut away or total mal on a rig equipped with a small metal handle. Now add gloves and you have the recipe for serious problems.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed!
That is why the Federation Francais du Parachutisme banned small (cutaway, ripcord, steering, etc.) handles, in the colder parts of France (eg. Normandy) during the winter.

[riggerrob 558]

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I would say "All students should wear gloves".

- If you are cold on your hands you might not feel the handle
- Your mind will keep thinking of those cold hands when it should be thinking of saving your life.
- You use the hands to steer a canopy, cold hands does not make it easier.
- You use the hands to flare a canopy.
- If you make a bad landing you might cut your hands. Might not be serious but it will keep you from skydivng a few days.

Ok, now tell me why students should not have gloves?
Is it so they can feel the handles?
What happened to "Look, Grab, Look, Grab, Pull, Pull"?
Are you teaching student to guess and feel their way?

....................................................................

I disagree!
We get very few IAD or PFF students between Halloween (end of October) and Easter (near the end of March).
Gloves are just one more variable, one more headache for the equipment manager and one more thing for students to forget. We can never seem to keep enough leather gloves on hand, because students either forget them in the landing field or wear them home.
Half the students instinctively don wool gloves, which are worse than useless for hanging onto struts or pulling handles.

Heck! During the cold months, you rarely see me jumping out of an airplane unless I am wearing thick ski gloves and can hide my hands behind the (tandem) student's neck for most of the freefall!

This debate borders on pointless, because most Canadian DZs close during the colder months.

[Hellis 0]

Wait wait wait.
You dont make any sense here.

You say you disagree because students might missplace/forget their gloves, and not because of a "real" reason?
We have had student losing main handles to pullout systems, goggles, helmets, knifes, cutaway and reservehandles. But we still dont want them jumping without it

We just tell the students we recomend that they use gloves, we have a few they can borrow but gloves are not that expensive so the best option is that they buy own.

What i meant in my post that it does not matter what time of the year it is or how warm/cold it is, students should always use gloves.
Students more often land off DZ where landings can be rougher. Landing in a field with 3 feet high "yellow stuff growing" you will have a bad landing and you will probably brace for impact with your hands.

I think i have made 5 or 6 jumps without gloves and that was my first jumps.
After that i landed on dirt/sand and hurt my hands, lesson learned.

[Floflo 0]

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Agreed!
That is why the Federation Francais du Parachutisme banned small (cutaway, ripcord, steering, etc.) handles, in the colder parts of France (eg. Normandy) during the winter.

My dear Rob, I already corrected you on that one in another thread : Small handles are banned everywhere in France, at all times. But your point is still valid.

[riggerrob 558]

"

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Wait wait wait.
You don't make any sense here.

You say you disagree because students might miss--place/forget their gloves, and not because of a "real" reason? ...

.............................................................................................................................

Students do not make any sense.
They are so over-loaded by all the new parachutes and altimeters and goggles, helmets, etc. that they lose track of their gloves.
So students have to learn how to use a parachute, plus learn how to read an altimeter, plus learn how to pull handles with unfamiliar gloves, etc.

The other headache is that too many students "forget" to put gloves back on the rack and wear them home.
All those stolen gloves cut into the operating expenses of skydiving schools.

The other factor is seasonal. Few students start lessons in North America in the cold months. Southern California students stay home when the temperature approaches 20 degrees Celsius, but come out - by the hundreds - when it is 35 degrees, humid, hazy and turbulent!
Gloves just make them sweat more!
Please explain the logic of that to me?????

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[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi rasmack,

This has created some interesting discussion.

But, for clarity, could you post a photo of the ripcord handle(s) in question.

Inquirying minds want to know.

JerryBaumchen

PS) With so many shapes of ripcord handles it is getting so that 'rather small' is a misnomer.

[rasmack 0]

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But, for clarity, could you post a photo of the ripcord handle(s) in question.

Inquirying minds want to know.

Inquiring minds are always good to encounter. However, this is a weekend DZ and I won't be there for at least a week or two. I'll try to ask if anyone have pictures ...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[dragon2 0]

Here ya go.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Joellercoaster 6]

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What i meant in my post that it does not matter what time of the year it is or how warm/cold it is, students should always use gloves

I dont know if it's still the case, but where I did my first AFF jumps in Australia, students were forbidden from using gloves. This was explained as being because gloves interfere with the sense of touch, which is an important part of the training.

I always wear them now, but I'm neither a student nor an instructor, so I'm not sure you or I are in a position to really say that.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi dragon,

Thanks. However, both of those photos show an awful lot of excess cable.

JerryBaumchen

[erdnarob 1]

Pictures make it more obvious. Thanks Jerry for asking. However, I have seen small type handles where there was one inch or less clearance between the inside edge of the handle and the side of the pocket. A bit small for the thumb especially when wearing gloves. One can see the pictures of the 2 types of handles alone in Paragear catalog too.
Note: the so called "old type Vector handle" is actually the standard large D handle. This is what I have on my 2008 Vector V3M.
Not only the large D type metal reserve handle is more protruding but it is also longer in height which can make a difference when under high stress.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.