jtlmd 0 #51 December 2, 2007 Shifting the discussion from the original question of Does A Baglock Stand You Up is an unwitting example of the old aphorism, "If you cannot prove X, then prove Y and pretend it is the same thing". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #52 December 2, 2007 Shifting the discussion from the original question of Does A Baglock Stand You Up is an unwitting example of the old aphorism, "If you cannot prove X, then prove Y and pretend it is the same thing". Quote Huh? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zing 2 #53 December 3, 2007 Its kind of like hearing about a flying carpet that flew somewhere the maker thought it shouldn't have been flying, so you hire a sleazeball to demand money because all the flying carpets that maker ever built are defective.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #54 December 3, 2007 Hi Twardo, Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? It means if you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS. How long you been jumping anyways????? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #55 December 4, 2007 Quote Hi Twardo, Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? It means if you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS. How long you been jumping anyways????? JerryBaumchen Doh!....yer right. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #56 December 5, 2007 Create a bag lock, Wear em, Test them in wind tunnel.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #57 December 9, 2007 QuoteIf the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. I believe by definition that amount of force sufficient to stand you up would cause you to decelerate, not accelerate even if you were presenting a smaller aerodynamic drag. I haven't spent too much time thinking about all the ifs and buts so this is what my instinct says. It could be entirely wrong. As for the AAD's data I do believe it could help out here. Any time you're dealing with unknowns the more data available the better. -Michael Not necessarily. A lot of people have gone in while thnking TOO MUCH about what happened. If you have altitude (I had a PC in tow on a 3k hop-n-pop and knew I had time because I wasn't at terminal) If you're at terminal, you have 6 or so seconds per 1k feet to think about all this extra 'data' and it could easily kill you. This sport is very simple in a lot of respects. Do what you're trained to do from day one. It isn't a safe sport; things you were originally taught to do might kill you. BUT, there are a lot more dead bodies that DIDN'T do what training taught them than bodies from doing everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #58 December 9, 2007 If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. I believe by definition that amount of force sufficient to stand you up would cause you to decelerate, not accelerate even if you were presenting a smaller aerodynamic drag. I haven't spent too much time thinking about all the ifs and buts so this is what my instinct says. It could be entirely wrong. Quote Another way of looking at it is how much 'drag' does it take to stand you up 'with nothing out' ? I can alter my body position with one hand and an extended arm to the point my vertical speed is greatly increased. Put that drag or more, 6-8 feet above me, with the tops of my shoulders as the attachment point and I'd have to fight to stay flat...not something I would do in an emergency. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zing 2 #59 December 9, 2007 Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #60 December 9, 2007 Quote Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage. Fly head down! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #61 December 9, 2007 Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 370 #62 December 11, 2007 QuoteI'm interested to know how you think that the data is going to help here other than to just satisfy your interests. Do you really expect to learn somthing from it that you are going to be able to apply to your list of emergency procedures? I'm really curious how it could possibly help? Accurate information = understanding = safer skydivers. Not sure how you don't get that. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #63 December 11, 2007 Quote Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA The video shows the reality fairly well. When the malfunction is a horseshoe, the victim jumper is still at the same fall rate as the other jumpers. Once the PC is out, he slows down noticably. I don't understand the argument re: this question "the more informed you are, the better jumper you are" The reality is that you need very little information in this situation. All you need to know is that if you don't do something, you will die. This can apply to every single skydive you make: if you don't do something, you will die. (some may argue that your cypres will save you, but you still have to do something IE turn it on, in order to not die) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #64 December 11, 2007 Once the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #65 December 11, 2007 QuoteOnce the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? It looks like the camera man goes head down at first, but at the end of the video you can see him/her roll back to belly. At this point the camera man and the victim jumper are well above everyone else in the skydive that tracked away (who, if they're any good, should track at less than normal freefall speed anyway). I'd bet that the camera person went to their back during the questionable part of the video, not head down. Most camera guys I know don't know how to fly head-down in camera wings anyway (which I bet he had, filming 4 way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #66 February 8, 2008 he should've cut that away and continue to turn rest of the points... just to show off knee flying skill in the middle of the dive isn't cool...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicron 0 #67 February 12, 2008 im pretty sure someone has safely laned a bag lock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevino 0 #68 February 19, 2008 do not even think about a baglock "slowing" you down. when it happens get rid of it immediately! my first mal was a baglock, I took longer than I should have to react to the situation and before I knew it, I was spinning horizontally. The G forces were pretty extreme and took all my strength to do the cutaway. A baglock is a high speed malfunction and there is no time to think or debate the issue. I have been there. KevinO Chief Instructor Johannesburg Skydiving Club South Africa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #69 March 30, 2008 I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 March 31, 2008 > so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, > I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. You should do this in any case. Reserves are designed to open best while NOT belly-to-earth; head-high is a better position to deploy in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #71 March 31, 2008 I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites potvinj 0 #72 April 3, 2008 I would like to echo what pilotdave has said, and with a simple calculation. See the estimates in: http://www.pcprg.com/fallspeedunderbaglock.pdf Given the numbers in current PC size and drag coefficients, and the dimensions of the human body, the fall rate could be either slower or faster than the belly-to-Earth fall rate - but not that much faster or slower. I have learned something today, since I always thought that the jumper would fall fatser, way faster. Jean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #73 April 7, 2008 Very interesting. I'm happy that someone was able to express this mathematically. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Zing 2 #53 December 3, 2007 Its kind of like hearing about a flying carpet that flew somewhere the maker thought it shouldn't have been flying, so you hire a sleazeball to demand money because all the flying carpets that maker ever built are defective.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #54 December 3, 2007 Hi Twardo, Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? It means if you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS. How long you been jumping anyways????? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #55 December 4, 2007 Quote Hi Twardo, Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh? It means if you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS. How long you been jumping anyways????? JerryBaumchen Doh!....yer right. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #56 December 5, 2007 Create a bag lock, Wear em, Test them in wind tunnel.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #57 December 9, 2007 QuoteIf the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. I believe by definition that amount of force sufficient to stand you up would cause you to decelerate, not accelerate even if you were presenting a smaller aerodynamic drag. I haven't spent too much time thinking about all the ifs and buts so this is what my instinct says. It could be entirely wrong. As for the AAD's data I do believe it could help out here. Any time you're dealing with unknowns the more data available the better. -Michael Not necessarily. A lot of people have gone in while thnking TOO MUCH about what happened. If you have altitude (I had a PC in tow on a 3k hop-n-pop and knew I had time because I wasn't at terminal) If you're at terminal, you have 6 or so seconds per 1k feet to think about all this extra 'data' and it could easily kill you. This sport is very simple in a lot of respects. Do what you're trained to do from day one. It isn't a safe sport; things you were originally taught to do might kill you. BUT, there are a lot more dead bodies that DIDN'T do what training taught them than bodies from doing everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #58 December 9, 2007 If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. I believe by definition that amount of force sufficient to stand you up would cause you to decelerate, not accelerate even if you were presenting a smaller aerodynamic drag. I haven't spent too much time thinking about all the ifs and buts so this is what my instinct says. It could be entirely wrong. Quote Another way of looking at it is how much 'drag' does it take to stand you up 'with nothing out' ? I can alter my body position with one hand and an extended arm to the point my vertical speed is greatly increased. Put that drag or more, 6-8 feet above me, with the tops of my shoulders as the attachment point and I'd have to fight to stay flat...not something I would do in an emergency. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zing 2 #59 December 9, 2007 Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #60 December 9, 2007 Quote Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage. Fly head down! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #61 December 9, 2007 Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 370 #62 December 11, 2007 QuoteI'm interested to know how you think that the data is going to help here other than to just satisfy your interests. Do you really expect to learn somthing from it that you are going to be able to apply to your list of emergency procedures? I'm really curious how it could possibly help? Accurate information = understanding = safer skydivers. Not sure how you don't get that. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #63 December 11, 2007 Quote Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA The video shows the reality fairly well. When the malfunction is a horseshoe, the victim jumper is still at the same fall rate as the other jumpers. Once the PC is out, he slows down noticably. I don't understand the argument re: this question "the more informed you are, the better jumper you are" The reality is that you need very little information in this situation. All you need to know is that if you don't do something, you will die. This can apply to every single skydive you make: if you don't do something, you will die. (some may argue that your cypres will save you, but you still have to do something IE turn it on, in order to not die) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #64 December 11, 2007 Once the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #65 December 11, 2007 QuoteOnce the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? It looks like the camera man goes head down at first, but at the end of the video you can see him/her roll back to belly. At this point the camera man and the victim jumper are well above everyone else in the skydive that tracked away (who, if they're any good, should track at less than normal freefall speed anyway). I'd bet that the camera person went to their back during the questionable part of the video, not head down. Most camera guys I know don't know how to fly head-down in camera wings anyway (which I bet he had, filming 4 way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #66 February 8, 2008 he should've cut that away and continue to turn rest of the points... just to show off knee flying skill in the middle of the dive isn't cool...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicron 0 #67 February 12, 2008 im pretty sure someone has safely laned a bag lock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevino 0 #68 February 19, 2008 do not even think about a baglock "slowing" you down. when it happens get rid of it immediately! my first mal was a baglock, I took longer than I should have to react to the situation and before I knew it, I was spinning horizontally. The G forces were pretty extreme and took all my strength to do the cutaway. A baglock is a high speed malfunction and there is no time to think or debate the issue. I have been there. KevinO Chief Instructor Johannesburg Skydiving Club South Africa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #69 March 30, 2008 I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 March 31, 2008 > so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, > I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. You should do this in any case. Reserves are designed to open best while NOT belly-to-earth; head-high is a better position to deploy in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #71 March 31, 2008 I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites potvinj 0 #72 April 3, 2008 I would like to echo what pilotdave has said, and with a simple calculation. See the estimates in: http://www.pcprg.com/fallspeedunderbaglock.pdf Given the numbers in current PC size and drag coefficients, and the dimensions of the human body, the fall rate could be either slower or faster than the belly-to-Earth fall rate - but not that much faster or slower. I have learned something today, since I always thought that the jumper would fall fatser, way faster. Jean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #73 April 7, 2008 Very interesting. I'm happy that someone was able to express this mathematically. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Zing 2 #59 December 9, 2007 Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #60 December 9, 2007 Quote Yeah, its a hell of a lot harder to grab the ground when you're in a vertical orientation ... especially when you've got those pesky thigh bones stuck up inside your ribcage. Fly head down! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #61 December 9, 2007 Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #62 December 11, 2007 QuoteI'm interested to know how you think that the data is going to help here other than to just satisfy your interests. Do you really expect to learn somthing from it that you are going to be able to apply to your list of emergency procedures? I'm really curious how it could possibly help? Accurate information = understanding = safer skydivers. Not sure how you don't get that. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auryn 0 #63 December 11, 2007 Quote Quote If the baglock has sufficient drag to stand you up from a stable flat position then it must be applying a fair amount of force to your body. Check this CRAZY video for your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rddYYoHhzjA The video shows the reality fairly well. When the malfunction is a horseshoe, the victim jumper is still at the same fall rate as the other jumpers. Once the PC is out, he slows down noticably. I don't understand the argument re: this question "the more informed you are, the better jumper you are" The reality is that you need very little information in this situation. All you need to know is that if you don't do something, you will die. This can apply to every single skydive you make: if you don't do something, you will die. (some may argue that your cypres will save you, but you still have to do something IE turn it on, in order to not die) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #64 December 11, 2007 Once the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Auryn 0 #65 December 11, 2007 QuoteOnce the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? It looks like the camera man goes head down at first, but at the end of the video you can see him/her roll back to belly. At this point the camera man and the victim jumper are well above everyone else in the skydive that tracked away (who, if they're any good, should track at less than normal freefall speed anyway). I'd bet that the camera person went to their back during the questionable part of the video, not head down. Most camera guys I know don't know how to fly head-down in camera wings anyway (which I bet he had, filming 4 way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #66 February 8, 2008 he should've cut that away and continue to turn rest of the points... just to show off knee flying skill in the middle of the dive isn't cool...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicron 0 #67 February 12, 2008 im pretty sure someone has safely laned a bag lock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevino 0 #68 February 19, 2008 do not even think about a baglock "slowing" you down. when it happens get rid of it immediately! my first mal was a baglock, I took longer than I should have to react to the situation and before I knew it, I was spinning horizontally. The G forces were pretty extreme and took all my strength to do the cutaway. A baglock is a high speed malfunction and there is no time to think or debate the issue. I have been there. KevinO Chief Instructor Johannesburg Skydiving Club South Africa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #69 March 30, 2008 I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 March 31, 2008 > so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, > I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. You should do this in any case. Reserves are designed to open best while NOT belly-to-earth; head-high is a better position to deploy in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #71 March 31, 2008 I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites potvinj 0 #72 April 3, 2008 I would like to echo what pilotdave has said, and with a simple calculation. See the estimates in: http://www.pcprg.com/fallspeedunderbaglock.pdf Given the numbers in current PC size and drag coefficients, and the dimensions of the human body, the fall rate could be either slower or faster than the belly-to-Earth fall rate - but not that much faster or slower. I have learned something today, since I always thought that the jumper would fall fatser, way faster. Jean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #73 April 7, 2008 Very interesting. I'm happy that someone was able to express this mathematically. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Auryn 0 #65 December 11, 2007 QuoteOnce the PC is out, he slows down noticeably. Quote I don't think he slows noticeably... He appears to be falling slower than the other guys TRACKING AWAY...and from the camera angle I think the camera man is vertical filming him? It looks like the camera man goes head down at first, but at the end of the video you can see him/her roll back to belly. At this point the camera man and the victim jumper are well above everyone else in the skydive that tracked away (who, if they're any good, should track at less than normal freefall speed anyway). I'd bet that the camera person went to their back during the questionable part of the video, not head down. Most camera guys I know don't know how to fly head-down in camera wings anyway (which I bet he had, filming 4 way) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stayhigh 2 #66 February 8, 2008 he should've cut that away and continue to turn rest of the points... just to show off knee flying skill in the middle of the dive isn't cool...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicron 0 #67 February 12, 2008 im pretty sure someone has safely laned a bag lock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevino 0 #68 February 19, 2008 do not even think about a baglock "slowing" you down. when it happens get rid of it immediately! my first mal was a baglock, I took longer than I should have to react to the situation and before I knew it, I was spinning horizontally. The G forces were pretty extreme and took all my strength to do the cutaway. A baglock is a high speed malfunction and there is no time to think or debate the issue. I have been there. KevinO Chief Instructor Johannesburg Skydiving Club South Africa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #69 March 30, 2008 I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 March 31, 2008 > so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, > I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. You should do this in any case. Reserves are designed to open best while NOT belly-to-earth; head-high is a better position to deploy in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #71 March 31, 2008 I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites potvinj 0 #72 April 3, 2008 I would like to echo what pilotdave has said, and with a simple calculation. See the estimates in: http://www.pcprg.com/fallspeedunderbaglock.pdf Given the numbers in current PC size and drag coefficients, and the dimensions of the human body, the fall rate could be either slower or faster than the belly-to-Earth fall rate - but not that much faster or slower. I have learned something today, since I always thought that the jumper would fall fatser, way faster. Jean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #73 April 7, 2008 Very interesting. I'm happy that someone was able to express this mathematically. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
stayhigh 2 #66 February 8, 2008 he should've cut that away and continue to turn rest of the points... just to show off knee flying skill in the middle of the dive isn't cool...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicron 0 #67 February 12, 2008 im pretty sure someone has safely laned a bag lock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevino 0 #68 February 19, 2008 do not even think about a baglock "slowing" you down. when it happens get rid of it immediately! my first mal was a baglock, I took longer than I should have to react to the situation and before I knew it, I was spinning horizontally. The G forces were pretty extreme and took all my strength to do the cutaway. A baglock is a high speed malfunction and there is no time to think or debate the issue. I have been there. KevinO Chief Instructor Johannesburg Skydiving Club South Africa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #69 March 30, 2008 I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #70 March 31, 2008 > so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, > I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. You should do this in any case. Reserves are designed to open best while NOT belly-to-earth; head-high is a better position to deploy in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #71 March 31, 2008 I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
potvinj 0 #72 April 3, 2008 I would like to echo what pilotdave has said, and with a simple calculation. See the estimates in: http://www.pcprg.com/fallspeedunderbaglock.pdf Given the numbers in current PC size and drag coefficients, and the dimensions of the human body, the fall rate could be either slower or faster than the belly-to-Earth fall rate - but not that much faster or slower. I have learned something today, since I always thought that the jumper would fall fatser, way faster. Jean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #73 April 7, 2008 Very interesting. I'm happy that someone was able to express this mathematically. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
