Poll: What Reserve Handle: Ring / Soft /Other

[sundevil777 93]

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People talk a lot about the 'snag hazzard' of a D-ring reserve handle, but I have never, ever once had either a cutaway or reserve handle come loose or get snagged in freefall.

Furthermore, I'd be interested to hear, even anecdotely about instances where a D-ring reserve handle was snagged, resulting in a reserve deployment causing injury to the jumper, or other jumpers.

I know FOR SURE of about a dozen stories of hard pulls on pillow type handles where the jumper eventualyl got it pulled, but they took several tries to get it out. One of them ended up under an open reserve less than 150ft from the ground. These are confirmed by the surviving jumpers who all switched to a D-ring afterwards.

I also know of at least a dozen fatalities involving low reserve deployments where a soft handle was suspected to be the cause of the delay between the cutaway and the reserve pull.

You simply cannot beat the mechanical advantage of a handle you can wedge in between your thumb and first finger and pull with no grip or hand strength required. When it comes to a 'must have' handle like the reserve, you take every advatage you can get. Your main PC - optional. The cutaway pillow - optional. The reserve handle - not optional.

I am a big fan of the low profile metal D handle that I posted earlier, but there has in fact been at least one case I know of where a D handle was snagged that resulted in death. It happened at Snohomish in the late 80's/early 90's I believe. A guy was climbing out to be floater and snagged it on the way out. I think they were flying a T-bo at the time. Of course the snag hazard was really the problem, whatever snagged it should not have been exposed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[airtwardo 6]

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like this ? http://www.apexbase.com/product.php?product_id=135

THAT's what I'm looking for....THANKS!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[fcajump 153]

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I'd be interested to hear, even anecdotely about instances where a D-ring reserve handle was snagged, resulting in a reserve deployment causing injury to the jumper, or other jumpers.

As one who is generally in favor of D-rings, I must agree that the fatal incident in West Point VA last year was, at least in part, due to the fact that the ripcord handle was, for whatever reason, out of the pocket. This is much less likely with a pillow style.

Additionally, an incident at another VA dropzone in the early 90's was directly related to a D-ring ripcord snag. The aircraft was a twin-bo with exterior step/handle arrangement. The floater handles extended above the mount point on the door frame (make a fist with thumb extended up...) this allowed one extra grip point for front/rear floaters. Unfortunately for "Bert the Beech-killer", this upper extension was also right at the reserve ripcord handle level. Reserve went over the tail, and Bert took the entire right horizontal stab and elevator off with his face/shoulder. (Fortunately the pilot was able to put the plane down intact, and Bert survived after much surgery.)

So yes, it does/can happen.

However, I do tend to agree with you that the occurances are very rare, and the issues with pillow handles concern me more...

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[ChrisRomp 0]

Haven't needed it yet (knock on wood), but my Mirage G4 has a slightly different D-ring with a tapered top edge.

Picture: http://www.miragesys.com/products/?loc=detail&id=1&iid=1048

[format 0]

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You simply cannot beat the mechanical advantage of a handle you can wedge in between your thumb and first finger and pull with no grip or hand strength required

I'm no sissy but I couldn't pull it with just left hand. Needed two hands. (1+ second lost)
I was learnt to push it away with one hand, full arm lenght.
If I was to pull it down, might have been o.k. with one hand.

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When it comes to a 'must have' handle like the reserve, you take every advantage you can get

including tucking the cable end into velcro because of this.

What goes around, comes later.

[BMFin 0]

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However, I do tend to agree with you that the occurances are very rare, and the issues with pillow handles concern me more...

I would like to see some data on this before making such assumptions. Personally I have seen a lot of incidents with the D-ring. (none of them fatal) And only one incident with the soft pillow. (fatal) To me it looks like the occurances are more rare with the pillow.

And like I said earlier: AAD or RSL will pretty much eliminate the potential problem with the soft pillow. The only remedy for the snag problems with the D-ring is to the the soft pillow. Conclusion = get a soft pillow with an AAD (or RSL)

[davelepka 4]

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Personally I have seen a lot of incidents with the D-ring. (none of them fatal) And only one incident with the soft pillow. (fatal) To me it looks like the occurances are more rare with the pillow.

What type of incidents are you referring to? It sounds like you're talking about a floating handle, which is not an incident if it doesn't result in a deployment. It's bothersome, and annoying, like line twists, but if it doesn't result in a deployment, it's not an incident.

What I'm talking about are times when the handle fails to operate properly, as-in the jumper is not able to easily grab and pull the handle. The only ones I can confirm that this was the case were the ones that did not result in a fatality, because the jumper was alive to confirm that the handle was the cause of the delay in pulling the resereve. To me, that is an incident.

You continue to reference RSls and AADs as the solution to the shortcomings of a soft handle, but as we have seen repeatedly, these are not to be counted on.

There have been an assortment of fatalities involving low cut aways where the jumper did not reach AAD firing speed with enough altitude remaining to allow for a complete reserve deployment before impact. In these cases, an immediate reserve pull might have made the difference, and when that is the key, the D-ring is the superior handle.

RSLs have also need known to fail, and again, in a case where you lack the alitude to deal with a soft handle, your life becomes dependant on the RSl to preform correctly. I would prefer to have my life depend on myself performing correctly, and when that's the case, quick is king and the D-ring is the quicker alternative.

None of this is mentioning the current hub-bub about reserve containers not releasing the freebags rigth away. Again, another case where losing a couple hundred feet making a second or third grab for a handle could make the difference between a fully open reserve at impact, or something less.

What you're doing is taking one short coming, and justifying it by embracing another shortcoming, all in an effort to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. It's taught in the FJC that RSLs, and AADs are back-up devices only, and that you the jumper need to perform in full to ensure your safety, but a soft handle may impair your ability to perform as such.

Consider that the 'problem' you're attemtping to solve has been present on the majority of jumps made in the course of history. Very few components have endured thoughout the the entireity of skydiving, but the VAST majority of jumps have been made with a steel, loop type reserve handle, and premature deployments have never been enough of a problem for it to be changed. Hell. Bill Booth even got rid of the ripcord itslef, replacing it with a length of Spectra line, but the end of it is still attached to the same D-ring that's been in use since Wonderhog #1.

My final point, is that the soft handle doesn't even solve the 'problem' you're looking to solve. There was a video posted on this site of a jumper accidentally pulling another jumpers cutaway pillow in freefall, and coincidentally, the ecaxt same thing happened at my DZ less that two months ago. Soft handles, if not properly protected, can also be accidentally pulled. The real soltution is to protect your handles, and jump the handles that give you the greatest chance of survival if you should need to use them.

Edit to add - I have a vauge memory of soft reserve handles being outlawed somewhere in Europe, can anyone confirm is this is true, where it is, and why this was done?

[skydiverkeith 1]

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People talk a lot about the 'snag hazzard' of a D-ring reserve handle, but I have never, ever once had either a cutaway or reserve handle come loose or get snagged in freefall.

Furthermore, I'd be interested to hear, even anecdotely about instances where a D-ring reserve handle was snagged, resulting in a reserve deployment causing injury to the jumper, or other jumpers.

I know FOR SURE of about a dozen stories of hard pulls on pillow type handles where the jumper eventualyl got it pulled, but they took several tries to get it out. One of them ended up under an open reserve less than 150ft from the ground. These are confirmed by the surviving jumpers who all switched to a D-ring afterwards.

I also know of at least a dozen fatalities involving low reserve deployments where a soft handle was suspected to be the cause of the delay between the cutaway and the reserve pull.

You simply cannot beat the mechanical advantage of a handle you can wedge in between your thumb and first finger and pull with no grip or hand strength required. When it comes to a 'must have' handle like the reserve, you take every advatage you can get. Your main PC - optional. The cutaway pillow - optional. The reserve handle - not optional.

After that schpiel about mechanical advantage, I sincerely hope you have the standard 3-ring risers, and not the mini 3-ring. Otherwise you lose credibility.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[skydiverkeith 1]

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like this ? http://www.apexbase.com/product.php?product_id=135

THAT's what I'm looking for....THANKS!

Will these fit Mirage risers?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[skydiverkeith 1]

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***
Edit to add - I have a vauge memory of soft reserve handles being outlawed somewhere in Europe, can anyone confirm is this is true, where it is, and why this was done?

To my knowledge, soft handles are currently illegal in Finland.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[dragon2 0]

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Furthermore, I'd be interested to hear, even anecdotely about instances where a D-ring reserve handle was snagged, resulting in a reserve deployment causing injury to the jumper, or other jumpers.

Well during World Team '04, the German teamcaptain got his reserve pulled on exit from the Herc. He got hurt in so far that he had a few broken or bruised ribs and had trouble breathing and couldn't walk after he had landed his reserve.
Having your reserve handle snagged by another jumper (??? What's that in my hand???) at that height and with that speed = not fun and could have been much worse.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billvon 2,396]

>So, making for an easier reserve pull once every blue moon, can
>increase your danger all the other times.

Agreed. But even if it's only every 1000 jumps that you can't get that reserve handle out, you're still dead. Best to err on the side of being able to pull it IMO.

[billvon 2,396]

> but when looking at statistics we shouldnt just look at fatalities,
>since D-rings cause a lot of injuries, but soft pillows dont.

OK. What stats show that "D-rings cause a lot of injuries?" I haven't seen anything like that.

[muff528 3]

So.... just looking at the raw data at this time... it looks like the "soft handle" users are better packers than the "hard handle" users. (As of now.. 50 of 80, or 62.5%, hard handle users have deployed reserves and 19 of 47, or 40.4%, soft handle users have done so.) Either that or some of the soft handle users are not now able to participate in the survey.

[sundevil777 93]

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So.... just looking at the raw data at this time... it looks like the "soft handle" users are better packers than the "hard handle" users. (As of now.. 50 of 80, or 62.5%, hard handle users have deployed reserves and 19 of 47, or 40.4%, soft handle users have done so.) Either that or some of the soft handle users are not now able to participate in the survey.

You don't have enough info to be making that sort of conclusion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[muff528 3]

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So.... just looking at the raw data at this time... it looks like the "soft handle" users are better packers than the "hard handle" users. (As of now.. 50 of 80, or 62.5%, hard handle users have deployed reserves and 19 of 47, or 40.4%, soft handle users have done so.) Either that or some of the soft handle users are not now able to participate in the survey.

You don't have enough info to be making that sort of conclusion.

Yes, of course this was an entirely non-scientific analysis based on information taken from the internet. Well, from just one page on the internet. (I know you don't think that was a serious post.

[thrillstalker 0]

What's the "problem" with mini risers?

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[skydiverkeith 1]

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What's the "problem" with mini risers?

I assume you mean mini 3-ring.
They have less of a mechanical advantage when cutting away, requiring a higher pull force.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[airtwardo 6]

Personally I have seen a lot of incidents with the D-ring. (none of them fatal) And only one incident with the soft pillow. (fatal) To me it looks like the occurrences are more rare with the pillow.

[BMFin 0]

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What type of incidents are you referring to?

Im referring to premature reserve deployments such as the west point incident less than a year ago. (if you read this thread more carefully you will find a link to the description of this particular incident)

AAD is a good backup. Just like reserve is. No one should count on AAD only, just like no one should count on reserve only. However, it doesnt mean that you shouldnt have one just in case.

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There have been an assortment of fatalities involving low cut aways where the jumper did not reach AAD firing speed with enough altitude .

Yes. No system is perfect. This is ofcourse possible. However, IMO the soft + AAD will exclude the most likely problems, and only leave us only with the least likely.

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RSLs have also need known to fail,

I was never suggesting that one should merely count on RSL or AAD. Priority still is to use the soft handle.

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Hell. Bill Booth even got rid of the ripcord itslef, replacing it with a length of Spectra line, but the end of it is still attached to the same D-ring that's been in use since Wonderhog #1.

Bill Booth offers both pillow and D-ring reserve handles for his rigs. A while back someone asked his opinion here on DZ.com about the matter. He didnt want to choose one over the other. Basically he said this choise is a tradeoff. However, he did tell us how he had tested if the average jumper can pull harder on the D-ring than the pillow. The result was that there is no difference.

[fcajump 153]

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So.... just looking at the raw data at this time... it looks like the "soft handle" users are better packers than the "hard handle" users. (As of now.. 50 of 80, or 62.5%, hard handle users have deployed reserves and 19 of 47, or 40.4%, soft handle users have done so.) Either that or some of the soft handle users are not now able to participate in the survey.

You don't have enough info to be making that sort of conclusion.

Sundevil777 is correct... (and no I don't take my own surveys here as scientifically meaningful, more like interesting bonfire chat information from my peers)

I was pondering that myself, and the primary flaw in the thinking is that the exposure time* of those with soft handles to the potential of needing a reserve is significantly shorter than the exposure time for those with soft handles.

*talking about number of jumps/years that the item has been in use... this conclusion would only be valid if a control on the conditional exposure were used, such as "in the last x years/y number of jumps" If we all adopted a new handle tomorrow, then that handle would have the highest "have" vote, and the lowest "needed to use" vote of them all and it would say nothing about how we pack mains.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[dcfreefly 0]

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Furthers my thinking that loops are better than pillows when the pulling gets tough.

Which also makes it easier for the handle to accidentally get pulled. In my opinion, the soft loops have much more disadvantages than advantages.