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Zeppo

Container Sizing Inducing Malfunction?

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Hello All

I am seeking feedback and potential insights into a problem I may have (a good one in a sense, but please, read on)

Last year, I put about 200 jumps on a Katana 135. Over the winter I ordered a brand new wings container sized perfectly for me, and it fit great. I had no issues with it at all.

I started off the season as normal jumping as normal. THis year however, meant more tandems than sport jumps...

During the season, I made the decision (partially for health reasons, but also to improve my skydiving) to lose weight. I did weigh 225 (plus gear) and now I am just over 190 pounds. During this weight loss, I also decided to get a Katana 107.

The problem that I have noticed overall though, is that my container harness doesn't fit me properly any more (at all) I can tighten the leg straps as much as possible, but it still isn't as tight as I like it. (but tight enough that it won't cause pinching)

When I started jumping the Katana 107, I noticed that 9 out of 10 jumps were causing wild spinning line twists, which always scared the crap out of me (and one nearly caused a cutaway - luckily I pulled higher and had time to kick out of it) I spoke with many locals about it, including the previous owner, who claimed there were no problems with it.

I was wondering if it was my body position, but each jump I was particularly consious of my body position, leg symmetry, etc, but to no avail.

I set the Katana aside and tried jumping the Vengeance. This didn't seem to give me the same problems...at first (I only did two jumps on it) The last two jumps however, were similar to the katana, however, as it is less aggressive than the katana, I was able to deal with it and land safely.

My question, considering the relatively significant weight loss (35 lbs) is it possible that the incredible loose harness could be causing an asymmetrical opening on smaller canopies.

For this discussion - please assume that my body position is OK, I am only interested in the potential results of wearing a container that is quite loose around the hips, waist and shoulders, and what that impact might have on opening.

If this has been discussed before - please feel free to direct me there (I didn't find anything)

Thanks for your valued input.
What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

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can you try another container? maybe a buddies? im way too new to know if it would make any difference, but it doesnt worry you at all to have a harness thats too big for you?



It does concern me, which is why right now, I'm looking at buying a new container. It is mostly about knowing if a new container will actually fix the problem (if it was the source of the problem) if it isn't the container causing the problems, then it's something else with my body position that I have to figure out.

Step 1 - get new container
Step 2 - see if it still spins up
Step 2a - if it does, get my body position fixed (somehow)

I'm curious to actually know if it could be the container causing the issues. I think it makes sense, but I have a biased opinion, so I'm looking for others advise.

Also, no one at my DZ jumps the same size canopy, so it would be a big job of changing canopies for one jump.
What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

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In my experience, it can be the container, but it's generally not from the sizing of the main to the container or the overall fit of the harness (unless it's very loose.) Keep in mind that whether you have a 135 or 107, the harness will fit exactly the same once the main container is open.

To get the situation you describe (spinning up) the container could:

-have riser covers that release too late, keeping one riser down longer than the other during opening. This can be affected by reserve packjob fabric distribution.

-be trapping lines in the container during opening (very unusual; I've only seen this once and it was due to container damage on a lower corner of the reserve container.)

-have an old PC that's not getting the bag off your back effectively any more.

-have a shrunken kill line that does the same thing.

Does it always spin up in one direction? Do you notice any unusual hesitation during deployment? Is it spinning up after opening, or do you have line twists even as the canopy is hitting the air?

If you want to see if it's really the container size, you might consider padding the main container. You can use open cell foam jammed into the bottom to give the main more bulk as an experiment. Don't use closed cell since it swells with altitude.

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In my experience, it can be the container, but it's generally not from the sizing of the main to the container or the overall fit of the harness (unless it's very loose.) Keep in mind that whether you have a 135 or 107, the harness will fit exactly the same once the main container is open.

To get the situation you describe (spinning up) the container could:

-have riser covers that release too late, keeping one riser down longer than the other during opening. This can be affected by reserve packjob fabric distribution.

-be trapping lines in the container during opening (very unusual; I've only seen this once and it was due to container damage on a lower corner of the reserve container.)

-have an old PC that's not getting the bag off your back effectively any more.

-have a shrunken kill line that does the same thing.

Does it always spin up in one direction? Do you notice any unusual hesitation during deployment? Is it spinning up after opening, or do you have line twists even as the canopy is hitting the air?

If you want to see if it's really the container size, you might consider padding the main container. You can use open cell foam jammed into the bottom to give the main more bulk as an experiment. Don't use closed cell since it swells with altitude.



I never had any issues with the container, or the openings prior to my losing weight. That seems to be the only difference over the last 7 weeks. When the canopy opens, it is progressing smoothly, and on heading, then as the slider is mid way down the lines, the canopy can take a radical dive and begin spinning up (sometimes, I am able to stop it quickly, sometimes, it takes a little longer) Unfortunatley, I can't remember if it was one direction or not.

The situation I'm describing it not about the main fitting in the container, it's the container fitting me. I have about 8 - 12" of give on the container sliding up and down, meaning that I can lift up the back of the container about a foot. It sits very loose around my shoulders, and can slide side to side along my hips.

I am curious that with this sort of freedom of movement with the container against my body, could this lead to inadvertant pressure on different parts of the canopy, causing this issue.

Would it be worth while buying a new, better fitting container to help prevent this from happening again, or is it not the container, but in fact, my body position (which I really don't think so)

The container itself is brand new, purchased in Jan, with about 100 jumps on it, so I highly doubt that there is anything wrong with the container, and I don't think it's my packing, because it never did it before, it's once been since I've lost weight.
What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

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can you try another container? maybe a buddies? im way too new to know if it would make any difference, but it doesnt worry you at all to have a harness thats too big for you?



It does concern me, which is why right now, I'm looking at buying a new container. It is mostly about knowing if a new container will actually fix the problem (if it was the source of the problem) if it isn't the container causing the problems, then it's something else with my body position that I have to figure out.

Step 1 - get new container
Step 2 - see if it still spins up
Step 2a - if it does, get my body position fixed (somehow)

I'm curious to actually know if it could be the container causing the issues. I think it makes sense, but I have a biased opinion, so I'm looking for others advise.

Also, no one at my DZ jumps the same size canopy, so it would be a big job of changing canopies for one jump.



How about sending the container back to Wings to resize the harness? If it's THAT loose where you can move it up and down 12 inches that would seem the most logical to me.
If it didn't spin up before and now it does and every thing else is the same it seems like a no brainer to me.

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In my experience, it can be the container, but it's generally not from the sizing of the main to the container or the overall fit of the harness (unless it's very loose.) Keep in mind that whether you have a 135 or 107, the harness will fit exactly the same once the main container is open.

To get the situation you describe (spinning up) the container could:

-have riser covers that release too late, keeping one riser down longer than the other during opening. This can be affected by reserve packjob fabric distribution.

-be trapping lines in the container during opening (very unusual; I've only seen this once and it was due to container damage on a lower corner of the reserve container.)

-have an old PC that's not getting the bag off your back effectively any more.

-have a shrunken kill line that does the same thing.

Does it always spin up in one direction? Do you notice any unusual hesitation during deployment? Is it spinning up after opening, or do you have line twists even as the canopy is hitting the air?

If you want to see if it's really the container size, you might consider padding the main container. You can use open cell foam jammed into the bottom to give the main more bulk as an experiment. Don't use closed cell since it swells with altitude.



I never had any issues with the container, or the openings prior to my losing weight. That seems to be the only difference over the last 7 weeks. When the canopy opens, it is progressing smoothly, and on heading, then as the slider is mid way down the lines, the canopy can take a radical dive and begin spinning up (sometimes, I am able to stop it quickly, sometimes, it takes a little longer) Unfortunatley, I can't remember if it was one direction or not.

The situation I'm describing it not about the main fitting in the container, it's the container fitting me. I have about 8 - 12" of give on the container sliding up and down, meaning that I can lift up the back of the container about a foot. It sits very loose around my shoulders, and can slide side to side along my hips.

I am curious that with this sort of freedom of movement with the container against my body, could this lead to inadvertant pressure on different parts of the canopy, causing this issue.

Would it be worth while buying a new, better fitting container to help prevent this from happening again, or is it not the container, but in fact, my body position (which I really don't think so)

The container itself is brand new, purchased in Jan, with about 100 jumps on it, so I highly doubt that there is anything wrong with the container, and I don't think it's my packing, because it never did it before, it's once been since I've lost weight.



Here's my .02 worth: Your harness doesn't fit you correctly anymore. You mentioned 8- 12 inches of vertical movement on the containers on your back. When the geometry of either the harness or container is significantly altered (weight loss, different canopies etc) the alignment of the riser covers is affected. In order for them to function as designed they must sit in an "alignment window" this window is determined by the fit of the rig on a person. If the alignment is too far off in any direction they will either not close properly or will not open properly. During opening the rig is riding up your back and putting a very acute angle on the covers, this generally will cause hesitations or hangups, even with velcro closed covers. Try it in slow motion from a hanging harness and you'll see what I mean. My advice; Get your harness and leg pads re-sized.

Mick.

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Have you checked the line trim? I know that's not what you asked about but from my experience when they start opening "funny" it means I'm due for a new line set.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

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When the canopy opens, it is progressing smoothly, and on heading, then as the slider is mid way down the lines, the canopy can take a radical dive and begin spinning up (sometimes, I am able to stop it quickly, sometimes, it takes a little longer)



I'm sure no rigger, but based on what you said here, I'm guessing that what you mentioned about uneven pressure is exactly what is happening. If it's so loose that you can end up hanging unevenly in the harness, that would (at least to me!) explain how it could begin to open ok and on heading, then go to heck on you as the slider is descending. Coming out of the container, it's ok until it opens enough to stand you up and begins to put your full weight on the leg straps, and that is when the uneven pressure occurs. I am with the "get video" post .... should be pretty revealing I'd bet. I'll be really interested to hear what corrects the problem for you!!
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

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When PD last visited my DZ, I put 10 jumps on a Katana. Of the 10 jumps, I had 2 good openings.

The PD rep was quick to blame me for not being symmetrical in the harness and insisted the canopy was fine. Strangely enough I have not had this problem with any other canopy, including the Velo that I was jumping a few weeks later.

You don't have to travel far to find people insisting many of the smaller Katanas open like shit. I think there's a good reason for that.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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When PD last visited my DZ, I put 10 jumps on a Katana. Of the 10 jumps, I had 2 good openings.

The PD rep was quick to blame me for not being symmetrical in the harness and insisted the canopy was fine. Strangely enough I have not had this problem with any other canopy, including the Velo that I was jumping a few weeks later.

You don't have to travel far to find people insisting many of the smaller Katanas open like shit. I think there's a good reason for that.

_Am



People seem to be pretty specific. Either they love their Katana, and it opens perfectly for them, or they quickly dispose of it because of the stupid openings.
What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

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>If it's so loose that you can end up hanging unevenly in the harness,
>that would (at least to me!) explain how it could begin to open ok and on
>heading, then go to heck on you as the slider is descending.

I thought that might be the case as well - but the container worked fine with a larger main (at a similar loading.) And once the container is open, the size of the main no longer has anything to do with the fit. An odd problem for sure.

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